Comment by 0xbadcafebee

Comment by 0xbadcafebee 17 hours ago

3 replies

I think you should reconsider the idea that frontier models will be superior, for a couple reasons:

- LLMs have fixed limitations. The first one is training, the dataset you use. There's only so much information in the world and we've largely downloaded it all, so it can't get better there. Next you can do training on specific things to make it better at specific things, but that is by definition niche; and you can actually do that for free today with Google's Tensors in free Cloud products. Later people will pay for this, but the point is, it's ridiculously easy for anyone to fine-tune training, we don't need frontier companies for that. And finally, LLM improvements come by small tweaks to models that already come to open weights within a matter of months, often surpassing the frontier! All you have to do is sit on your ass for a couple months and you have a better open model. Why would anyone do this? Because once all models are extremely good (about 1 year from now) you won't need them to be better, they'll already do everything you need in 1-shot, so you can afford to sit and wait for open models. Then the only reason left to use frontier cloud is that they host a model; but other people do cloud-hosted models! Because it's a commodity! (And by the way, people like me are already pissed off at Anthropic because we're not allowed to use OAuth with 3rd party tools, which is complete bullshit. I won't use them on general principle now, they're a lock-in moat, and I don't need them) There will also be better, faster, more optimized open models, which everyone is going to use. For doing math you'll use one model, for intelligence you'll use a different model, for coding a different model, for health a different model, etc, and the reason is simple: it's faster, lower memory, and more accurate. Why do things 2x slower if you don't have to? Frontier model providers just don't provide this kind of flexibility, but the community does. Smart users will do more with less, and that means open.

On the hardware:

- Def it will continue to be investment-worthy, but be cautious. The growth simply isn't going to continue at pace, and the simple reason is we've already got enough hardware. They want more hardware so they can continue trying to "scale LLMs" the way they have with brute force. But soon the LLMs will plateau and the brute force method isn't going to net the kind of improvements that justify the cost. Demand for hardware is going to drop like a stone in 1-2 years; if they don't cease building/buying then, they risk devaluing it (supply/demand), but either way Nvidia won't be selling as much product so there goes their valuation. And RAM is eventually going to get cheaper, so even if demand goes up, spending is less. The other reason demand won't continue at pace is investors are already scared, so the taps are being tightened (I'm sure the "Megadeal" being put on-hold is the secret investment groups tightening their belts or trying to secure more favorable terms). I honestly can't say what the economic picture is going to look like, but I guarantee you Nvidia will fall from its storied heights back to normal earth, and other providers will fill the gap. I don't know who for certain, but AMD just makes sense, because they're already supported by most AI software the way Nvidia is (try to run open-source inference today, it's one of those two). Frontier and cloud providers have Tensors and other exotic hardware, which is great for them, but everyone else is gonna buy commodity chips. Watch for architectures with lower price and higher parts availability.

Turfie 16 hours ago

> There's only so much information in the world and we've largely downloaded it all, so it can't get better there.

What about all the input data into LLMs and the conversations we're having? That must be able to produce a better next gen model, no?

> it's ridiculously easy for anyone to fine-tune training, we don't need frontier companies for that.

Not for me. It'll take me days, and then I'm pretty sure it won't be better than Gemini 3 pro for my coding needs, especially in reasoning.

> For doing math you'll use one model, for intelligence you'll use a different model, for coding a different model, for health a different model, etc, and the reason is simple: it's faster, lower memory, and more accurate.

Why wouldn't e.g. Gemini just add a triage step? And are you sure it's that much easier to get a better model for math than the big ones?

I think you underestimate the friction this causes regular users by handpicking and/or training specific models, whilst the big vendors are good enough for their needs.

  • 0xbadcafebee 13 hours ago

    > What about all the input data into LLMs and the conversations we're having? That must be able to produce a better next gen model, no?

    Better models are largely coming from training, tuning, and specific "techniques" discovered to do things like eliminate loops and hallucinations. Human inputs are a small portion of that; you'll notice that all models are getting better despite the fact that all these companies have different human inputs! A decent amount of the models' abilities come from properties like temperature/p-settings, which is basically introducing variable randomness. (these are now called "low" and "high" in frontier models) This can cause problems, but also increased capability, so the challenge isn't getting better input, it's better controlling randomness (sort of). Even coding models benefit from a small amount of this. But there is a lot more, so overall model improvements are not one thing, they are many things that are not novel. In fact, open models get novel techniques before the frontier does, it's been like that for a while.

    > Not for me. It'll take me days, and then I'm pretty sure it won't be better than Gemini 3 pro for my coding needs, especially in reasoning.

    If you don't want the improvements, that's up to you; I'm just saying the frontier has no advantage here, and if people want better than frontier, it's there for free.

    > Why wouldn't e.g. Gemini just add a triage step? And are you sure it's that much easier to get a better model for math than the big ones?

    They already do have triage steps, but despite that, they still create specific models for specific use-cases. Most people already choose Thinking by default for general queries, and coding models for coding. That will continue, but there will be more providers of more specific models that will outperform frontier models, for the simple fact that there's a million use-cases out there and lots of opportunity for startups/community to create a better tailored model for cheaper. And soon all our computers will be decent at doing AI locally, so why pay for frontier anyway? I can already AI-code locally on a 4 year old machine. Two years from now, there likley won't be a need for you to use a cloud service at all, because your local machine and a local model will be equivalent, private, and free.

    • Turfie 4 hours ago

      Thank you. You have somewhat shifted my beliefs in a meaningful way.