Comment by observationist

Comment by observationist 2 days ago

5 replies

Same video, two movies. Presentation, pace, timing, narrative all designed to reinforce your existing biases, even if you aren't aware of them. You look and think you've seen. You're nudged and put into a bubble with people offering up comments that validate and verify what you think, and what you know, and what you believe.

Anything outside your bubble is framed as a conspiracy theory or the ramblings of deluded, even evil people on "the other side".

The media streams you watch end up being a rorschach test - carefully crafted and deployed to different bubbles, A/B tested, cynically manipulative and deliberately framed and intended to evoke specific reactions. The language is carefully used so two people can watch the exact same clip or newscast or soundbite and hear what sounds like a reasonable reinforcement of what they already believe. Sometimes things will even technically be 100% factual, but it'll be just as manipulative and as much of a "lie" as if they'd made it up entirely.

I don't think bubbles is the right paradigm, anymore - these are deep, deep pits, and every piece of media that reinforces your model, where that model is the one intended for you to have by some of the big influences, brings you another shovelful deeper, and you've got to put that much more effort in to dig your way out.

Trying to talk to anyone who hasn't worked their own way out of digging out of a media pit ends up being a team sport or a tribalistic conflict - the facts and the stories don't mesh, and if you're 100% certain of your facts, and your "opposition" concedes to the facts, then you're going to think your story is the right one. The cognitive dissonance and the effort required to update your model to match reality - to recognize the manipulative, malignant influences deploying these conflicting storylines, and to figure out how to identify what actual reality is - is too much for most people, and way too much for any casual online interactions.

Not sure how you fix that without forbidding some actors from doing what they do at a legislative level, and that gets into hairy freedom of speech territory.

reactordev 2 days ago

While that may be true, the video I saw was murder.

And it’s not a bubble or a pit anymore, it’s an island, a nation of their own mind.

Consumerists till the end.

  • observationist 2 days ago

    You saw a video that might have been murder. It might have been an accident. We know the gun he carried was notorious for unintended discharge. It might have been dropped and gone off, it might have fired accidentally in the agent's hand after being taken away, prompting the trained, legitimate response of law enforcement. It could have been a cold, deliberate execution if one of the CBP agents knew Pretti from previous conflicts and was antagonistic towards him. It could have been a heated, spur of the moment killing way outside the bounds of the law.

    You certainly don't know - none of us have all the facts, and the investigation into it will reveal it. It's that both sides present the same facts, the same video, and tell two starkly different narratives, either of which are reasonable conclusions based on the facts that can be proven from the available evidence. What doesn't get talked about is that even with multiple videos, from multiple angles, nobody has sufficient evidence to definitively prove what actually happened.

    What I do know is that it's extraordinarily stupid to get into a heated conflict with any sort of law enforcement, especially when armed, because any sort of accident or exceptional circumstance or misinterpretation of events is not going to go your way, legally and sometimes with regards to you losing your life. Pretti was in the wrong - you cannot physically interfere with and antagonize federal law enforcement. We have legal remedies to hold officers to account for overstepping or violations. He was well within his rights to record and then report the mistreatment of the woman he was stepping in to "protect", and the proper place and time to remedy that wrong is in court. If the officer was in the wrong, he'd have been held to account. Getting physical and up in the officers face and space was either stupid and ignorant, or a deliberate act intended to elicit additional violence. There's protest "training" out there that teaches people to do that sort of thing, with the intent of escalating violence deliberately, specifically for agitprop and convenient political narrative purposes.

    The government has the sole and absolute monopoly on violence, for better or worse, and if you intrude on that in the slightest, you will lose.

    They want the nebulous, uncertain, rorschach test incidents where they can spin an event to tell the story they want to tell, regardless of whether that story is actually true. That doesn't mean the CBP agents were in the right, nor that Pretti was responsible or did it on purpose, or that anyone involved in the whole series of events had ulterior motives. The only thing we know, until an investigation is finalized, and due process is enacted, is that we lack critical information that explains the full context and nuance of the incident. There are a metric shit ton of ways the actual story might have gone, ranging from schizophrenic break (by an agent, or Pretti) to suicide by cop, to tragic accident caused by a notoriously flawed weapon, to some other asshat, currently unknown, throwing a firecracker after the officer announced "gun", and so on. We don't even have enough information to know what's a "likely" outcome and make some reasonable Bayesian projections.

    The videos we saw aren't proof of anything. They're evidence of dozens of different possible scenarios, with a wide range of likely possibilities, and dozens more we don't even know to consider without having the information that investigation will bring to bear.

    • scarecrowbob 2 days ago

      Hoss, you can rashomon yourself into any position.

      That tactic is almost always an excuse to not realize some hard truth about the world.

      Most of us look at your position and understanding you're literally just trying to gaslight yourself.

      The kind of radical moral relativism indicated by your position was appealing to me when I was a sophomore philosophy student, in the same way that I found solipsism to be an interesting idea to entertain.

      For instance, you know for a fact that "The government has the sole and absolute monopoly on violence" is a) not true, and as the gov becomes ever more violent it's not even "legitimate", which is the word you've gaslighted yourself into forgetting in your thinking here.

      But I'm an adult now, and I have spent enough time questioning my beliefs. I have been around enough folks who think they are rational but who haven't done the "work" that I can smell it when I do it, and I can smell it when other folks do it.

    • reactordev 2 days ago

      I saw agents discharge their weapons. There’s no IF at this point. To even suggest that there is ANY alternative is feeding the misinformation flames.

      • scarecrowbob 2 days ago

        "who you gonna believe, a random poster or your lying eyes?"