Comment by defrost

Comment by defrost 4 days ago

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And yet Chinese EV's are flying out of their factories, well, a few are - most are self driving out to the shipping yards.

This despite the 2025 support by the Chinese state for the Chines EV industry now being almost nothing.

  By contrast, defenders of China could point out that the data show that subsidies as a percentage of total sales have declined substantially, from over 40% in the early years to only 11.5% in 2023, which reflects a pattern in line with heavier support for infant industries, then a gradual reduction as they mature.

    In addition, they could note that the average support per vehicle has fallen from $13,860 in 2018 to just under $4,600 in 2023, which is less than the $7,500 credit that goes to buyers of qualifying vehicles as part of the U.S.’s Inflation Reduction Act.
Old source: https://www.csis.org/blogs/trustee-china-hand/chinese-ev-dil...

but the arc of less subsidies is clear.

thesmtsolver2 4 days ago

You should also factor in lax human rights enforcement in China (which acts like a subsidy essentially in effect and is not factored in these calculations):

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/10/human-rights-...

BYD is at the bottom of the list (worst for human rights). Tesla is second at the top (better for human rights).

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  • defrost 4 days ago

    > You should also factor in ...

    Thank you for the suggestion.

    I should point out that is not my work, and dates from 2023. If you follow the link to the work quoted you might be able to contact the authors and pass them your thoughts.

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    • claytongulick 4 days ago

      You are citing a source to tell a story about subsidies.

      Lack of worker safety standards can be considered to be a government subsidy when doing a comparison.

      Therefore, it's reasonable to point out that it should be factored in.

      Reply View 1 reply
      • defrost 3 days ago

        Absolutely. Even better, suggest that the authors factor that in to their presentation.

        Now, I'm not going to tell you what _you_ should do, nor would I even tell you what I think you should do.

        I'll leave that to @thesmtsolver2 and others who enjoy that type of thing.

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  • maxglute 3 days ago

    This is a retarded list of self reported paper commitments, not actual practice, i.e. no actual supply chain assessment was done, not that you can trust a propaganda shitrag like amnesty. Tesla simply "promises" in their PR to be better for human rights. Hint 50%+ of Tesla exports come from Tesla Shanghai which uses same supply raw material supply chain as rest of PRC auto, functionally they're the same.

    Meanwhile how do you factoring in PRC manufacturing is simply more modern with more labour saving automation, i.e. they simply have less people to "abuse". PRC simply be peak human rights by eliminating the most humans from process.

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01100011 4 days ago

You'd expect subsidies to drop as supply chains mature and economies of scale kick in. What about subsidies to inputs like electricity, aluminum, batteries, etc?

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  • defrost 4 days ago

    You would be better answered by reading the link and any methodology references.

    Perhaps "support" already factors in all relevant subsidies.

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