Comment by cbarrick

Comment by cbarrick 4 days ago

> [T]he war on general computing and computer ownership [...] It is exhausting to see the hatred some have for people just owning their hardware.

The integrity of a system being verified/verifiable doesn't imply that the owner of the system doesn't get to control it.

This sort of e2e attestation seems really useful for enterprise or public infrastructure. Like, it'd be great to know that the ATMs or transit systems in my city had this level of system integrity.

You argument correctly points out that attestation tech can be used to restrict software freedom, but it also assumes that this company is actively pursuing those use cases. I don't think that is a given.

At the end of the day, as long as the owner of the hardware gets to control the keys, this seems like fantastic tech.

Matl 4 days ago

> You argument correctly points out that attestation tech can be used to restrict software freedom, but it also assumes that this company is actively pursuing those use cases. I don't think that is a given.

Once it's out there and normalized, the individual engineers don't get to control how it is used. They never do.

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direwolf20 4 days ago

Unless Lennart Pottering uses remote attestation to verify who is attesting to whom.

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hakfoo 3 days ago

System integrity also ends at the border of the system. The entire ecosystem of ATM skimmers demonstrates this-- the software and hardware are still 100% sanctioned, they're just hidden beneath a shim in the card slot and a stick-on keypad module.

I generally agree with the concept of "if you want me to use a pre-approved terminal, you supply it." I'd think this opens up a world of better possibilities. Right now, the app-centric bank/media company/whatever has to build apps that are compatible with 82 bazillion different devices, and then deal with the attestation tech support issues. Conversely, if they provide a custom terminal, it might only need to deal with a handful of devices, and they could design it to function optimally for the single use case.

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gosub100 4 days ago

You want PCIe-6? Cool well that only runs on Asus G-series with AI, and is locked to attested devices because the performance is so high that bad code can literally destroy it. So for safety, we only run trusted drivers and because they must be signed, you have to use Redhat Premium at a monthly cost of $129. But you get automatic updates.

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cbarrick 3 days ago

Do you want the control systems of the subway to get modified by a malicious actor? What about damn releases? Heat pumps in apartment buildings? Robotaxis? Payroll systems? Banks?
Amutability is a huge security feature, with tons of real world applications for good.
The fact that mega corps can abuse consumers is a separate issue. We should solve that with regulation. Don't forsake all the good that this tech can do just because Asus or Google want to infringe on your software freedoms. Frankly, these mega corps are going to infringe on your rights regardlessly, whether or not Amutable exists as a business.
Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

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- ahartmetz 3 days ago
  
  It seems like we're doing pretty well without the baby. You sell it, you say we need it. Highly credible
  
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curt15 4 days ago

> At the end of the day, as long as the owner of the hardware gets to control the keys, this seems like fantastic tech.

The problem is that there are powerful corporate and government interests who would love nothing more than to prevent users from controlling the keys for their own computers, and they can make their dream come true simply by passing a law.

It may be the case that certain users want to ensure that their computers are only running their code. But the same technologies can also used to ensure that their computers are only running someone else's code, locking users out from their own devices.

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cbarrick 4 days ago

That's like saying we shouldn't build anything that can be used for good if it can also be used for evil.
By that logic, we should just turn off the internet. Too much potential for evil there.
More seriously, the argument being presented seems to just be "attestation tech has been used for evil in the past, therefore all attestation tech is bad," which is obviously an unsound argument. A sound argument would have to show that attestation tech is _inherently_ bad, and I've already provided examples that I think effectively counter that. I can provide more if needed.
I get that we want to prevent attestation tech from being used for evil, but that's a regulatory problem, not a technical one. You make this point by framing the evil parties as "corporate and government interests."
Don't get me wrong, I am fully against anything that limits the freedoms of the person that owns the device. I just don't see how any of this is a valid argument that Amutable's mission is bad/immoral/invalid.
Or maybe another argument that's perhaps more aligned with the FOSS ideology: if I want e2e attestation of the software stack on my own devices, isn't this a good thing for me?

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- curt15 4 days ago
  
  >if I want e2e attestation of the software stack on my own devices, isn't this a good thing for me?
  The building blocks are already there for a sufficiently motivated user to build their own verified OS image. Google has been doing that with ChromeOS for years. The danger I see is that once there is a low-friction, turnkey solution for locking down general purpose systems, then the battle for control over users' devices reduces to control over the keys. That is much easier for well-heeled interests to dominate than outlawing Linux outright.
  The status quo is a large population of unverified but fully user-configurable systems. While the ideal end state is a large population of verified and fully user-configurable systems, it is more likely that the tools for achieving that outcome will be co-opted by corporate and political interests to bend the population toward verified and un-configurable systems. That outcome would be far worse than the status quo.
  
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- direwolf20 4 days ago
  
  Attestation tech is much more useful for evil than for good.
  
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