Comment by zeta0134

Comment by zeta0134 4 days ago

84 replies

The giant bugbear in this conversation is always multiplayer. That's because almost all of the big players in that space currently favor rootkits in the form of overly invasive anti-cheat, which the Linux wrappers (mostly the wine project) refuse to support for security reasons.

If you don't play PvP specifically, the rest of the library is significantly more open to you. Personally I have always favored single player experiences and indie games from smaller studios, and for the most part those run great.

godelski 4 days ago

It's unfortunate but at the same time if enough people switch to Linux then they'll be forced to change their ways.

So if you can go without those games or don't play MMOs that is rootkits then switch to force their hand.

Besides, them installing a rootkit on your machine is not an acceptable practice anyways. It's a major security issue. Sometimes we need to make a stand. Everyone has a line, where's yours?

  • Macha 4 days ago

    MMOs are actually fine. WoW, FFXIV, RuneScape, all work great on Linux. They’re not really games that rely on hidden information, are not pvp first and need to simulate stuff on the server anyway, so can verify moves are valid there.

    It’s the competitive progression shooters and ranked esports games that go in for the restrictive anti-cheat

    • nhhvhy 4 days ago

      Even within competitive shooters there’s still plenty that run great on Linux. 90% of my time spent gaming is on Overwatch or CS2, and I’ve found that both ran significantly better on my Debian 13 installation than they ever did on Win11.

      • godelski 4 days ago

        And it's worth noting that CS2 is still the most played game on Steam. It has double the players of the second most played game, Dota 2, which also works on Linux. And that has double the player base of the number 3 game, Arc Raiders, which also works great on Linux.

        The idea that you'll be missing out is ill founded. Yes, there are some games that won't work. PUBG, Bongo Cat, Rust[0], and EA Sports FC 26 are the ones on the top 10 multiplayer list. But it's also not like you don't have plenty of massively popular games to choose from.

        I'll even say don't switch to Linux, just stop playing these abusive games. Honestly, if you're unwilling to change OSes but willing to do this then people that want to jump ship can. We all win from this behavior. Even you as it discourages Windows from shoving in more junk and discourages publishers like EA from shoving in massive security vulnerabilities like rootkits. I mean we've all seen how glitchy many AAA games are, you really think their other software isn't going to be just as unpolished and bug ridden?

        [0] Apparently works with Linux servers? https://www.protondb.com/app/252490

        P.S. If anyone wants to check for yourself:

          - Steam Multiplayer by rankings: https://steamdb.info/charts/?tagid=3859
          - Proton Support: https://www.protondb.com/
  • abustamam 4 days ago

    This is true in principle but most gamers are just gonna take the path of least resistance. If they can't play fortnite on Linux (I'm using an example, I don't know if it's actually unplayable on Linux) then they will use whatever OS lets them play.

    People have been saying "vote with your wallet" every time gaming companies do something anti consumer like day one dlc or buggy releases (don't pre-order!) or $90 games, but gaming companies continue to push the envelope on what gamers will pay for because gamers keep paying for it.

    It's a sad reality.

    • direwolf20 4 days ago

      Take a step back. Why do people want to play Fortnite so much and not anything else?

      • jsheard 4 days ago

        Because their friends play Fortnite, for example? Multiplayer is often social, so "just play something else" turns into "just get new friends".

      • johnnyanmac 4 days ago

        1. The audience is mostly kids. They can't buy any premium games easily (and is the lens for the rest of my points)

        2. Network effects. Works as well on them as any of us. Especially in a world that makes it more and more hostile to have them meet IRL.

        3. It's a generation raised on "forever games". They are used to games they pick up and will continually play for years. Games that will always provide new stuff for them. They fundamentally have different habits from Millenials.

        4. Mobile support. So many kids play on mobile. So they are even more isolated from the consple market.

      • eptcyka 4 days ago

        I empathize with the question. But you are essentially asking *why do people want to use instagram and not any other one of millions social media app?*

      • abustamam 4 days ago

        I can't answer that, but probably similar reason why anyone plays any game. It's fun, their friends play it, etc.

        I don't personally play fortnite. But substitute fortnite for any DRMd multi-player game (or MMO).

    • some_random 4 days ago

      Even this framing is silly, if you have a PC to game there are not enough pros to choose Linux. You are giving up the ability to play some popular games and increasing the amount of effort required to play another chunk of them in exchange for what? A snappier file browser? Fewer anti-consumer dark patterns? It's not about "path of least resistance" it just flat out isn't worth it.

      • abustamam 4 days ago

        > Fewer anti-consumer dark patterns

        > isn't worth it

        This is a gross reduction of why people choose Linux. People don't choose it just for a snappier file browser and fewer anti-consumer dark patterns.

        1. games that install what amounts to be rootkits on my computer are not ok 2. windows potentially spying on my data without my consent is not ok

        If you wanna label these as dark patterns, that's fine, but let's not pretend that this behavior is ok.

        I like playing games. But I like privacy and security more than playing games, which is why I have a linux gaming machine and a PS5. Some people would rather just play games and not worry about the other stuff, which is understandable for the reasons you mentioned.

      • demilicious 4 days ago

        This is overestimating the amount of effort involved to game on Linux, imo. It is true that there are a couple games using kernel-level anticheat which preclude their working on linux, but for the most part the effort required to play games on Linux now is zero if it's a Steam game and almost zero elsewhere.

  • ectospheno 4 days ago

    I switched to console gaming years ago. I can still play any major release while having whatever OS I want on my computers.

    • Gracana 4 days ago

      I did this and was happily Windows-less for quite a few years. I ended up building a PC with a big GPU and so I switched back to PC gaming with a Windows installation alongside Linux, but I still think the console route is a great option.

      • int_19h 4 days ago

        At this point, I think quite a few people are basically treating their Windows desktop as a console.

        • Gracana 4 days ago

          I'll have to remember that one, that's a good way to put it.

  • johnnyanmac 4 days ago

    >Sometimes we need to make a stand. Everyone has a line, where's yours?

    I just don't really play multiplayer to begin with. So I was never on the spectrum.

    But tens of millions are. They won't even be aware of what's happening. That's why this remains.

  • phr4ts 4 days ago

    >It's unfortunate but at the same time if enough people switch to Linux then they'll be forced to change their ways.

    Nope. Not Nadella. He'll kill windows in a heartbeat.

jsheard 4 days ago

> which the Linux wrappers (mostly the wine project) refuse to support for security reasons.

It's more that there's no sensible way they could do it even if they wanted to. Emulating the Windows kernel internals is well beyond the scope of what WINE is trying to do, and even if they did do it, there would be no way for the anticheat vendors to tell the difference between the AC module being sandboxed for compatibility versus sandboxed as a bypass technique. Trying to subvert the AC in any way is just begging to get banned, even if it's for beingn reasons.

RamRodification 4 days ago

As a competitive old school arena FPS guy, I have also had a very hard time getting the same smoothness and low latency (input, output, whatever it is) on Linux. The games I play are very fast and twitchy, and milliseconds matter.

There seems to be too many layers and variables to ever get to the bottom of it. Is it the distro itself? Is it a Wayland vs. X11 thing? Is it the driver? The Proton version? Some G-SYNC thing? Some specific tweak that games based on this game engine needs?

  • cobar 4 days ago

    I've had better luck since the switch to Wayland. I don't play many FPS games but mouse input & overall smoothness for strategy games has been great. Check your mouse settings, you might need to set a higher USB sample rate. Piper is a frontend for adjusting them.

  • bigyabai 4 days ago

    > Is it a Wayland vs. X11 thing?

    Yes, most likely. Without a compositor I get lots of stuttering on x11, whereas KDE and GNOME's wayland sessions are both buttery smooth out of the box.

    Might be my Nvidia GPU, but I've never gotten x11 to work flawlessly for gaming.

    • simoncion 4 days ago

      > Without a compositor I get lots of stuttering on x11... Might be my Nvidia GPU, but I've never gotten x11 to work flawlessly for gaming.

      Weird. I don't use KDE's compositor, and -AFAIK- WindowMaker doesn't have one. When in either KDE or in WindowMaker I don't have stuttering with either fullscreen, borderless "fullscreen", or windowed games... everything is as smooth as it is in Windows. Having said that, I do know that -when using KDE- some fullscreen games get jittery as all shit if a notification pops up and remain that way until the notification disappears. I expect that that performance problem would go away if I was using the compositor... but I don't want to spend the VRAM on it.

      I use AMD graphics cards, so it might be an Nvidia thing that you're seeing. It also might be a "Your Linux distro simply stopped shipping good xorg installs" thing. I'm running Gentoo Linux which continues to ship updated versions of xorg and supporting software. [0]

      [0] I've heard people running Debian and Debian-derived distros report X11 behavior that absolutely does not match what I've been seeing for years... so some percentage of the "X11 can't do $THING" when it really, really can must be coming from distros that ship either dramatically out-of-date or severely crippled xorg installs.

      • hparadiz 4 days ago

        X11 has basically no development anymore. That means regressions are entirely ignored.

        I switched my Gentoo box from X11 to Wayland three years ago at this point.

        It's shocking that people still install X11 as a default in 2026 except with very old hardware.

  • eertami 4 days ago

    I know what you mean, though I have a device running SteamOS though and it runs extremely smoothly, the latency is no different than my windows PC (on titles where it can achieve the same framerate).

    I'm sure that it must be possible to replicate whatever optimisations SteamOS has on other distros, but unfortunately I am not sure what those are exactly.

  • simoncion 4 days ago

    > The games I play are very fast and twitchy, and milliseconds matter.

    Out of curiosity, what games are those? I wonder if I also play a subset of them.

    • RamRodification 3 days ago

      The Quakes! Quake Live and Quake Champions mainly.

      • simoncion 3 days ago

        Ah. Yeah, I play games very much like that (but not those specific ones). I also play rhythm games, which require precise timing.

        Like this guy mentions [0], for all but one of the games I've tried, [1] I see comparable or superior performance to Windows.

        I'm running AMD hardware, and I'm using KDE without a compositor on Xorg (that is, not on Wayland). I strongly expect that I've successfully disabled KDE's compositor because I seem to get the same performance when I use WindowMaker, which has never had a compositor.

        [0] <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46799656>

        [1] That game is the Deus Ex that takes place in Prague... I think it's Human Revolution. It's mind-boggling how slow it is.

  • hparadiz 4 days ago

    You should only ever be using Wayland from now on.

aqme28 4 days ago

> That's because almost all of the big players in that space

To the OP's point-- there are soooo many games nowadays, that if you and your friend group can skip some of those "big players," there are still hundreds of multiplayer games to play.

simoncion 4 days ago

> ...which the Linux wrappers (mostly the wine project) refuse to support for security reasons.

I mean, several of the major anticheats can be configured to work just fine on Linux. [0] It's up to the game dev whether or not it's permitted. So, yeah, unless the game is one where its dev makes huge blog posts about how "advanced" its anti-cheat is (like Valorant or the very latest CoD/Battlefield games) it's quite likely that multiplayer games will work just fine on Linux.

And if they don't, and the faulty game is a new purchase on Steam, then ask for a refund and tell them that the game doesn't work with your OS. Easy, peasy.

[0] I have 100% solid, personal knowledge that Easy Anti Cheat can work on Linux. On Linux, I play THE FINALS, Elden Ring, and a couple of other EAC-"protected" games without any troubles. I have perhaps-unreliable memories that at least one of the games I play uses Denuvo, which is only sometimes used as anti-cheat but does use many of the same techniques as kernel-mode anticheat.

  • jsheard 4 days ago

    > I have 100% solid, personal knowledge that Easy Anti Cheat can work on Linux.

    That's no secret, but the catch is that the Linux version is much, much easier to bypass. That's why some developers choose not to enable it, or in the case of Apex Legends, enabled it but later backtracked and disabled it again.

    • Draiken 4 days ago

      > That's why some developers choose not to enable it

      That's an excuse. It's mostly incompetence or more often than not the company doesn't think it's worth the effort. With more Linux users, the balance will eventually shift from "fuck them" to "we have to figure out a way".

      • johnnyanmac 4 days ago

        Well yeah, it always comes down to money. Even on an indie level Linux support is a commitment.

        https://reddit.com/r/gamedev/comments/e2ww5s/mike_rose_linux...

        Now if you do care about quality, having a committed, technical audience giving quality big reports is a godsend. But that's not where we are this decade rife with layoffs and rampant outsourcing in the industry.

      • int_19h 4 days ago

        Kernel-level anti-cheats are considerably more complicated to make for Linux for obvious reasons like lack of ABI stability in kernel space.

    • simoncion 4 days ago

      > ...but the catch is that the Linux version is much, much easier to bypass.

      Shrug. Rumor has it that the Windows version is already fairly trivial to bypass.

      • dleslie 4 days ago

        Oh, it absolutely is; if your product doesn't update its EAC bits regularly then it may as well not use EAC at all. Even still, there are known ways around it.

bikelang 4 days ago

Even PVP is starting to “just work” via Proton. Arc Raiders runs just fine on Linux and is a strictly PvP game. Over time I think this will be less and less of a problem.

  • TulliusCicero 4 days ago

    Arc Raiders is a PvPvE game, like most extraction shooters.

    • Draiken 4 days ago

      Still has an anti-cheat, they just bothered to allow Linux support.

      Companies don't do this out of laziness/incompetence, but even some large anti-cheats work on Linux and some games simply choose to not enable it (cough, Tarkov, cough). Their problem, I'm no longer gonna play games that don't work on Linux.

      Funnily enough the best FPS game ever (Counter-Strike) runs absolutely fine on Linux. Thanks Valve!

      • int_19h 4 days ago

        As far as I know, all the anti-cheat options for Linux are not kernel-level, which means that they are drastically less effective at their intended purpose. That's why so many competitive multiplayer games choose to not enable it.

trinsic2 4 days ago

Its not that they refuse to support the anti-cheat rootkits, its that its really difficult to emulate or abstract kernel level code. If you are using kernel level anti-cheat, you are just asking for trouble all-around.

estimator7292 4 days ago

Vote with your wallet, as the saying goes. If you quit paying money for the privilege of installing a rootkit, maybe they'll stop selling rootkits.

  • johnnyanmac 4 days ago

    Lot of wallets are voting for AC, sadly. Sometimes the tyranny of the majority is a real thing.

jmusall 4 days ago

BattlEye works on linux nowadays, so there definitely is progress in this direction!

logicchains 4 days ago

The greatest PvP game, DOTA, works on Linux, and once you get hooked on that you'll never want to play another PvP game.