Comment by microtonal

"In every way"

About ten years ago I took a three day cross-country Amtrak trip where I wanted to work on some data analysis that used mysql for its backend. It was a great venue for that sort of work because the lack of train-internet was wonderful to keep me focused. The data I was working with was about 20GB of parking ticket data. The data took a while to process over SQL which gave me the chance to check out the world unfolding outside of the train.

At some point, mysql (well, mariadb) got into a weird state after an unclean shutdown that put itself into recovery mode where upon startup it had to do some disk-intensive cleanup. Thing is -- systemd has a default setting (that's not readily documented, nor sufficiently described in its logs when the behavior happens) that halts the service startup after 30 seconds to try again. On loop.

My troubleshooting attempts were unsuccessful. And since I deleted the original csv files to save disk space, I wasn't able to even poke at the CSV files through python or whatnot.

So instead of doing the analysis I wanted to do on the train, I had to wait until I got to the end of the line to fix it. Sure enough, it was some default 30s timeout that's not explicitly mentioned nor commented out like many services do.

So, saying that things are "much better in every way" really falls on deaf ears and is reminiscent of the systemd devs' dismissive/arrogant behavior that many folk are frustrated about.

> systemd is so much better in every way,

How can I cancel a systemd startup task that blocks the login prompt? / how is forcing me to wait for dhcp on a network interface that isn't even plugged in a better experience?

There’s a reason why Devuan (a non systemd Debian) exists. Don’t want to get into a massive argument, but there are legitimate reasons for some to go in a different direction.

The problem is not systemd vs SysV et al, the problem is systemd spreading like a cancer throughout the entire operating system.

Also trying to use systemd with podman is frustrating as hell. You just cannot run a system service using podman as a non-root user and have it work correctly.

Here are a few examples of problems systemd has caused me:

System shutdown/reboot is now unreliable. Sometimes it will be just as quick as it was before systemd arrived, but other times, systemd will decide that something isn't to its liking, and block shutdown for somewhere between 30 seconds and 10 minutes, waiting for something that will never happen. The thing in question might be different from one session to the next, and from one systemd version to the next; I can spend hours or days tracking down the process/mount/service in question and finding a workaround, only to have systemd hang on something else the next day. It offers no manual skip option, so unless I happen to be working on a host with systemd's timeouts reconfigured to reduce this problem, I'm stuck with either forcing a power-off or having my time wasted.

Something about systemd's meddling with cgroups broke the lxc control commands a few years back. To work around the problem, I have to replace every such command I use with something like `systemd-run --quiet --user --scope --property=Delegate=yes <command>`. That's a PITA that I'm unlikely to ever remember (or want to type) so I effectively cannot manage containers interactively without helper scripts any more. It's also a new systemd dependency, so those helper scripts now also need checks for cgroup version and systemd presence, and a different code path depending on the result. Making matters worse, that systemd-run command occasionally fails even when I do everything "right". What was once simple and easy is now complex and unreliable.

At some point, Lennart unilaterally decided that all machines accessed over a network must have a domain name. Subsequently, every machine running a distro that had migrated to systemd-resolved was suddenly unable to resolve its hostname-only peers on the LAN, despite the DNS server handling them just fine. Finding the problem, figuring out the cause, and reconfiguring around it wasn't the end of the world, but it did waste more of my time. Repeating that experience once or twice more when systemd behavior changed again and again eventually drove me to a policy of ripping out systemd-resolved entirely on any new installation. (Which, of course, takes more time.) I think this behavior may have been rolled back by now, but sadly, I'll never get my time back.

There are more examples, but I'm tired of re-living them and don't really want to write a book. I hope these few are enough to convey my point:

Systemd has been a net negative in my experience. It has made my life markedly worse, without bringing anything I needed. Based on conversations, comments, and bug reports I've seen over the years, I get the impression that many others have had a similar experience, but don't bother speaking up about it any more, because they're tired of being dismissed, ignored, or shouted down, just as I am.

I would welcome a reliable, minimal, non-invasive, dependency-based init. Systemd is not it.

I'd be interested in what other init alternatives offer the security options systemd does

> in every way

You realize that quite a few senior and experienced developers and devops engineers do not share this view, right?