Comment by WarOnPrivacy

Comment by WarOnPrivacy 14 hours ago

129 replies

Judge Robert Pitman said that it violates the First Amendment and is "more likely than not - unconstitutional."

    The Act is akin to a law that would require every bookstore to verify
    the age of every customer at the door and, for minors, require parental
    consent before the child or teen could enter and again when they try to
    purchase a book.
We enjoy 1A protections of speech and assembly. When we consider our rights, the productive, default position is that government is told no (when it wants to restrict us).
robkop 13 hours ago

For those curious about the "consistent principle of law" here - SCOTUS wrestled with nearly exactly this question in Free Speech Coalition v. Paxton earlier this year, and effectively emboldened more of these laws.

Previously the Fifth Circuit had relied heavily on Ginsberg v. New York (1968) to justify rational basis review. But Ginsberg was a narrow scope - it held that minors don't have the same First Amendment rights as adults to access "obscene as to minors" material. It wasn't about burdens on adults at all. Later precedent (Ashcroft, Sable, Reno, Playboy) consistently applied strict scrutiny when laws burdened adults' access to protected speech, even when aimed at protecting minors.

In Paxton the majority split the difference and applied intermediate scrutiny - a lower bar than strict - claiming the burden on adults is merely "incidental." Kagan had a dissent worth reading, arguing this departs from precedent even if the majority won't frame it that way. You could call it "overturning" or "distinguishing" depending on how charitable you're feeling.

The oral arguments are worth watching if you want to understand how to grapple with these questions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckoCJthJEqQ

On 1A: The core concern isn't that age-gating exists - it's that mandatory identification to access legal speech creates chilling effects and surveillance risks that don't exist when you flash an ID at a liquor store.

Note: IANAL but do enjoy reading many SC transcripts

  • devsda 10 hours ago

    Law is a strange and possibly the only aspect in human societies where people are by default assumed to know, understand and follow it to the letter when everybody acknowledges that law is open to interpretation. You cannot in most cases claim ignorance as it can be abused by criminals.

    But there is whole industry of education, profession, journals, blogs, podcasts and videos trying to teach, interpret and explain the same laws. In the end it is decided by experts who have been practicing law for decades and even almost half of those experts may disagree on the right interpretation but a citizen is expected to always get it right from the start.

    • sfdlkj3jk342a 8 hours ago

      In the end, we are at the mercy of those with power. Laws are just a way to make their decisions appear fair and appease the masses. If you piss off enough the wrong person with power, it doesn't matter what the laws say, you'll get screwed.

      • Dumblydorr 39 minutes ago

        It’s not the ideal of the system. We shouldn’t have two tiered justice, the top should be being held accountable.

        Adams and Jefferson wrestled with another question. J said generations shouldn’t be tied to the decisions of their ancestors. Adams said but surely laws are necessary to maintain stability and order and preserve their fragile democracy for future generations.

        • immibis 31 minutes ago

          Ideal and reality are rarely in alignment, and reality is what we need to be concerned with.

      • earthnail 6 hours ago

        Not quite that simple. Laws legitimise and stabilise those in power. If enough people stop believing in the law, it really threatens those in power.

        There are other means to gaining power, of course.

    • andrewflnr 10 hours ago

      Strange and destructive. I believe comprehensible law is a human right that is critically underacknowledged. Like, up there with the right to speech and a fair trial.

      If you cannot understand the law as it applies to you, you cannot possibly be free under that law, because your actions will always be constrained by your uncertainty.

      • coderatlarge 9 hours ago

        maybe we’re inching towards rule by law vs rule of law by making things so abstruse that you need a multiyear education to understand what is allowed, when and where.

  • dmurray 13 hours ago

    I would read your summaries of legal precedents again, ahead of lots of people who AAL.

    • monocularvision 12 hours ago

      Highly recommend the podcast “Advisory Opinions” if you are interested in Supreme Court analysis.

      • cmptrnerd6 11 hours ago

        I also recommend that podcast but I would suggest balancing it with '5-4' podcast or 'strict scrutiny'. Sara and David do a very good job explaining both sides and the law but there are times I think advisory opinions could spend more time on the arguments made by the other side or the weaker portions of their supported view.

selinkocalar 13 hours ago

The technical implementation is messy too. Most age verification systems either don't work well or create massive privacy risks by requiring government ID uploads.

  • triceratops 10 hours ago

    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46223051 This one works well. Or at least, as well as age verification for tobacco and alcohol. And equally privacy-preserving.

    • chrisweekly 8 hours ago

      Agreed! Great idea. I'll save others the click:

      "The insistence on perfect age verification requires ending anonymity. Age verification to the level of buying cigarettes or booze does not. Flash a driver's license at a liquor store to buy a single-use token, good for one year, and access your favorite social media trash. Anonymity is maintained, and most kids are locked out. In the same way that kids occasionally obtain cigs or beer despite safeguards, sometimes they may get their hands on a code. Prosecute anyone who knowingly sells or gives one to a minor."

      • CrossVR 5 hours ago

        This does nothing to protect anonymity as you are still assigned a unique code that has been tied to your ID at the liquor store.

  • shostack 13 hours ago

    That feels like a feature and not a bug given the way some of this stuff is heading.

  • Forgeties79 10 hours ago

    LinkedIn’s verification is maddening

    • lostlogin 10 hours ago

      LinkedIn is maddening. If you make the mistake of signing up, it takes years to escape their spam and bs.

      • toast0 8 hours ago

        I got years of their spam without signing up. Only after several years did they add a way to opt out an email address without making an account.

knodi123 10 hours ago

> "would require every bookstore to verify the age of every customer at the door and, for minors..."

It's a dumb law, but, devil's advocate - isn't that how porn shops work? And porn shops also sell some non-porn items, too.

  • akerl_ 9 hours ago

    This is the difference between standing on a street corner shouting "shit" and taking a shit on a street corner.

    The court is generally pretty adept at navigating the difference between "a bookstore that has some spicy books" and "a sex shop that has some non-spicy books".

    • immibis 29 minutes ago

      Most modern social media is the latter, but for trash and propaganda, rather than sex. So why doesn't the court apply the same rule that it's okay to check IDs on entry?

    • knodi123 7 hours ago

      I guess that makes sense. Thanks.

    • Nasrudith 4 hours ago

      Laws which are open to abuse are bad laws. Full stop.

      • akerl_ an hour ago

        The world is very complex. It's effectively impossible to write laws on most topics that perfectly capture all nuance. Which is why we have a judicial system that can look at a law and a situation and say "nope, this law (or this usage of a law) is incorrect". Which is what's happened here, where the court issued an injunction on enforcement of the Texas law.

    • jaco6 9 hours ago

      Bookstores that carry porn are porn shops. Apps that carry porn are porn shops, and since the app store has apps that carry porn, the app store is a porn shop.

      • akerl_ an hour ago

        Can you back that up? Basically nowhere else I'm aware of do we draw that kind of expansive categorization. A gas station isn't a book store if they have one rack of books next to all the snacks. A book store isn't an electronics shop if they have a rack of e-readers.

      • lukan 4 hours ago

        Now apply that logic to the whole of the internet..

        You might arrive at an old saying, about what the internet is for.

    • hiddencost 6 hours ago

      ICYMI Kavanaugh endorsed arresting people because they look brown so I'm not sure why we're putting any faith in the court system.

  • killingtime74 9 hours ago
    • CrossVR 5 hours ago

      Only the second one is absolute for some reason.

      • fc417fc802 3 hours ago

        Far from it, but I'd rather not drag things so severely off topic. I'll just point out that you used to be able to mail order some surprising (at least by modern sensibilities) stuff.

jandrewrogers 14 hours ago

It is difficult to square the notional unconstitutionality of this with the fact that the exercise of other Constitutional rights have long been conditional on age. This just looks like another example.

What is the consistent principle of law? I am having difficulty finding one that would support this ruling.

  • Zak 13 hours ago

    Laws limiting fundamental constitutional rights are subject to "strict scrutiny", which means they must be justified by a compelling government interest, narrowly tailored, and be the least restrictive means to achieve the interest in question. One might reasonably argue even that standard gives the government too much leeway when it comes to fundamental rights.

    Age restrictions narrowly tailored to specific content thought to be harmful to minors have often been tolerated by the courts, but something broad like all book stores, all movie theaters, or all app stores violates all three strict scrutiny tests.

  • amanaplanacanal 14 hours ago

    I'm interested: the only one that I can think of that has some limitations is the second amendment? Are there others?

    As to the first amendment: Although not equal to that of adults, the U.S. Supreme Court has said that "minors are entitled to a significant measure of First Amendment protection." Only in relatively narrow and limited circumstances can the government restrict kids' rights when it comes to protected speech. (Erznoznik v. City of Jacksonville, 422 U.S. 205 (1975).)

    • jfengel 13 hours ago

      Why is the second amendment excepted? Nothing in the text says anything different from the others with regards to age.

      And don't say "because it's insane for kids to buy deadly weapons" because that doesn't seem to figure into any other part of second amendment interpretation.

      • etchalon 13 hours ago

        Because that's the way our courts have ruled on it.

        Nothing more complicated than that. The courts are empowered by the Constitution to interpret the Constitution, and their interpretation says kids can have their rights limited.

      • mothballed 13 hours ago

        That didn't happen until 1968 and by that time the constitution was basically toilet paper. The answer is ever since the progressive (and on some occasions, before that) era the constitution was more of a guideline, occasionally quoted by judges much like you can quote the bible to support pretty much anything if you twist it enough.

        • wqaatwt 5 hours ago

          > since the progressive (and on some occasions, before that)

          Wasn’t it the other way around? E.g. the fir amendment was pretty much ignored (barely a guideline) by everyone almost until the 1900s.

          Even the founders themselves discarded it almost entirely just a few years after the constitution was ratified..

    • lovich 11 hours ago

      The Bong hits 4 Jesus case[1] clarified that minors don’t have full first amendment rights since they are compelled to attend school, and government employees can punish them for their speech.

      My memory is failing me for the relevant case name but I’m also fairly sure students don’t have full 4th amendment rights, again because they are compelled to attend school and the government employees are allowed to search them at any time

      [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morse_v._Frederick

  • WarOnPrivacy 14 hours ago

    > It is difficult to square the notional unconstitutionality of this with the fact that the exercise of other Constitutional rights have long been conditional on age.

    Some of this depends on whether the state has an interest in preventing known, broad harms - say in the case limiting minors ability to consume alcohol.

    Conversely, there are no clearly proven, known targeted harms with respect of youth access to app stores (or even social media). What there are, are poorly represented / interpreted studies and a lot of media that is amplifying confused voices concerning these things.

  • GeekyBear 13 hours ago

    The government doesn't have a compelling state interest in preventing you from downloading any app (a weather app, for instance) unless you provide your government ID first.

    > In U.S. constitutional law, when a law infringes upon a fundamental constitutional right, the court may apply the strict scrutiny standard. Strict scrutiny holds the challenged law as presumptively invalid unless the government can demonstrate that the law or regulation is necessary to achieve a "compelling state interest". The government must also demonstrate that the law is "narrowly tailored" to achieve that compelling purpose, and that it uses the "least restrictive means" to achieve that purpose. Failure to meet this standard will result in striking the law as unconstitutional.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strict_scrutiny

  • irishcoffee 14 hours ago

    > It is difficult to square the notional unconstitutionality of this with the fact that the exercise of other Constitutional rights have long been conditional on age. This just looks like another example.

    > What is the consistent principle of law? I am having difficulty finding one that would support this ruling.

    The Constitution of the US mentions age in a few very specific places, namely the minimum age to run for The House, The Senate, The Presidential seat, and I believe voting age.

    I don't understand your point.

    • jandrewrogers 13 hours ago

      The interpretation of existing jurisprudence is that age limits on the free exercise of rights is Constitutional in many circumstances regardless of if such limits are not explicitly in the Constitution. This is a simple observation of the current state of reality.

      Those age limits are arbitrary and the justification can sometimes be nebulous but they clearly exist in the US.

      • dragonwriter 13 hours ago

        > The interpretation of existing jurisprudence is that age limits on the free exercise of rights is Constitutional in many circumstances regardless of if such limits are not explicitly in the Constitution.

        This is explicitly the case with voting rights, but other than that? While there a contextual limits where age may be a factor as to whether the context applies (e.g., some of the linitations that are permitted in public schools), I can't think of any explicit Constitutional right where the courts have allowed application of a direct age limit to the right itself. Can you explain specifically what you are referring to here?

      • irishcoffee 13 hours ago

        > The interpretation of existing jurisprudence is that age limits on the free exercise of rights is Constitutional in many circumstances regardless of if such limits are not explicitly in the Constitution. This is a simple observation of the current state of reality.

        > Those age limits are arbitrary and the justification can sometimes be nebulous but they clearly exist in the US.

        I mean, kind of, I guess?

        States make their own age-related rules. The states are part of the US. So technically sure, you're right. In practice, you're very wrong.

      • shkkmo 13 hours ago

        Perhaps if you had examples or decisions to explain what you're talkinh about, you would make your point better?

        As is, you are being politely called out as incorrect because you are asserting someone people don't believe and not providing any argument, evidence or justification.

  • [removed] 14 hours ago
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  • jibal 13 hours ago

    > the fact that the exercise of other Constitutional rights have long been conditional on age

    Which of those are in regard to the 1st Amendment?

    > This just looks like another example.

    No, it doesn't.

    > What is the consistent principle of law?

    The 1st Amendment.

    > I am having difficulty finding one that would support this ruling.

    The judge stated it clearly. And if there's an inconsistency then it's other rulings that violate the 1st Amendment that aren't supported, not this one.

    • kagrenac 13 hours ago

      Correct. If a right "shall not be infringed", then it shall not be infringed. Period. End of discussion. That right is inviolate. Any obstruction to its exercise is plainly anti-American.

      • wyldfire 13 hours ago

        If someone set a bomb using a speech recognition algorithm looking for specific elements of political speech, and I knowingly detonated it with that kind of political speech, would the act of my political speech be protected speech?

        Is the act of shouting "fire!" in a crowded theater protected speech?

        Surely there should be some limits on what constitutes protected speech.

zkmon 3 hours ago

Judges are struggling to find the analogies known to them from the world of 70's. Apps are not like books only. They are like movies, sports, tools, postal mailbox, pet, friend, bank, money, shop, cab and anything you can imagine. When movies require age-restriction, apps can do so too.

  • tremon 3 hours ago

    And which movies, when broadcast on TV (i.e. viewed inside people's homes), verify the age of everyone watching before continuing? Your analogy is just as flawed.

    • mikkupikku 2 hours ago

      When movies are broadcast on TV, they must first be censored according to the FCC's rules. Of course this only applies to broadcast, not cable, but cable doesn't get broadcast into people's houses without them signing up for it.

TimByte 2 hours ago

Age gates at the App Store level aren't a narrow restriction, they're a universal checkpoint

emptysongglass 13 hours ago

All of us in the EU could learn something from this judge's ruling and from the Constitution. The EU is on the fast-track to turning into a vast surveillance state the way things have been going (the increasing rise of arresting people who post mean things on the internet, Chat Control, age restrictions now rolling out in Denmark).

We love to regulate here in the EU and now that love of regulation is being weaponized against its own people.

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pipes 3 hours ago

As a UK subject, with a government that has begun implementing the online safety act, prosecuting people for tweets that clearly weren't inciting violence and getting rid of jury trials for cases with fewer than five years sentences, I look on with envy at your constitutional protections of the individual.

  • owisd 2 hours ago

    The problem interpreting the intent of that tweet is that Lucy Connolly herself admitted to authorities she was inciting violence so becomes hard to build a defence at that point. Incitement isn’t first amendment protected in the US either https://codes.findlaw.com/us/title-18-crimes-and-criminal-pr...

    • pipes 35 minutes ago

      I should be clearer and provide references etc, I was refering to this: https://freespeechunion.org/labour-reported-me-for-racial-ha...

      The major part of this case is that without a jury trial he'd probably have had zero chance of being cleared. Countless others were persuaded to plead guilty to avoid a long time in prison and then were given long sentences. h he was strong enough not to give in.

      You are right, freedom of expression in the US doesn't cover inciting violence, but it has an high bar, imminent lawless action:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandenburg_v._Ohio

      Yes in Lucy Connolly's case she admitted to inciting violence, though I'm not certain what she did justifies a 31 month sentence.

  • kalterdev 2 hours ago

    American constitution is underappreciated. It ensures peace but faces profoundly undeserved hatred in return.

The_President 12 hours ago

False analogy given by this federal judge. App stores are gateways to social environments and unknown or future content. Every book in a bookstore can be verified because the content can be known and audited. Regardless of opinion on the root issue, this judges statement aligns books with the Internet and they are absolutely not the same.

  • nunez 10 hours ago

    Yes, but you can't stop eight year olds from grabbing a James Patterson or Stephen King novel from the shelf. Their parents should, and some librarians might throw a moral exception to their choice, but if they wanna read It, they're gonna read It.

    Enforcing anything other than that is a huge 1A violation IMO.

    • The_President 9 hours ago

      "you can't stop eight year old from ..."

      Phrasing this as "you" versus "a second party to the child" involves me, where I originally did not present a statement that would give the impression that I'd be involved. Keep me - "you" - out of it. I'm simply making fun of this analogy.

  • Aloisius 7 hours ago

    > Every book in a bookstore can be verified because the content can be known and audited

    A bookstore with a single employee can no more verify the content of every new book or periodical put up for sale than Apple can verify all new content on the internet.

    Books and periodicals come out far, far too quickly for an independently owned bookstore to read first. Never mind new books which have set release dates where bookstores might not get advanced copies for books sold on consignment.

    • owisd an hour ago

      That’s an argument that sounds convincing in principle, but in reality I can walk into any independent bookstore and find it’s not filled with porn and AI slop, so clearly there is a successful vetting process going on. Namely, the publishers vet the books then the bookstore owner only has to vet the publishers. A proof of concept internet equivalent is if I scrape a bunch of trusted YouTube channels onto a NAS and give my kids access to that NAS but block YouTube access otherwise.

  • lmz 12 hours ago

    With that argument you could argue for age gating wifi access and mobile data.

    • The_President 11 hours ago

      Bookstore and libraries are environments where content is known. I am not making any sort of argument that identifies internet access as something to age gate.

      Correct analogies should be used to present the most fool proof argument.

      • Refreeze5224 10 hours ago

        Who cares if you don't like his analogy? His point is that this is a violation of the 1st Amendment. Which, by the way, does not mention anything about content being known or not.

        • The_President 10 hours ago

          I should have contacted you, Refreeze98, prior to posting my comment that contained far less of an abstraction than you've condescendingly supplemented.

  • mjd 12 hours ago

    Have you read the opinion?

    • The_President 11 hours ago

      Yes and I am addressing the quoted remark above which stands out.

paulddraper 6 hours ago

That is exactly the case for movies, yes?

Movie theatres require a chaperon for minors for R rated films? (And theatres often block some ages entirely.)

echelon 14 hours ago

I hope we can use the First Amendment and freedom of assembly to tackle these ID age verification (read: 1984 surveillance) laws. I don't have faith that this will work.

We need to amend the constitution to guarantee our privacy. It should be a fundamental right.

  • WarOnPrivacy 14 hours ago

    > We need to amend the constitution to guarantee our privacy. It should be a fundamental right.

    As far as government intrusion into our privacy, it's addressed by the 4th Amendment's guarantee - that the right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects and that our rights against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated.

    The challenge is that courts repeatedly and routinely support and protect the government in it's continual, blatant violation of our 4A protections.

    This has allowed governments at every level to build out the most pervasive surveillance system in human history - which has just been waiting for a cruelty-centric autocrat to take control of it.

    And for the most part, we have both parties + news orgs to thank for this. They've largely been united in supporting all the steps toward this outcome.

    • GeekyBear 14 hours ago

      > As far as government intrusion into our privacy, it's addressed by the 4th Amendment's guarantee that the right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects and that our rights against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated.

      The Pennsylvania High Court recently ruled that the Pennsylvania local police don't need a warrant to access your search history.

      https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46329186

      Clearly, those protections have already been violated.

      • WarOnPrivacy 13 hours ago

        > The Pennsylvania High Court recently ruled that the Pennsylvania local police don't need a warrant to access your search history. Clearly, those protections have already been violated.

        Absolutely. And to keep court-sanctioned violations from getting challenged, a state can utilize a number of tactics to shroud the methods in secrecy. This makes it very difficult for the violated to show standing in a challenge.

        The state has nearly every possible advantage in leveraging gov power against the public.

      • codersfocus an hour ago

        You don't understand that news item. The police didn't search a specific person's account, they asked Google (who gave it to them voluntarily) anyone who searched the victim's address in the past week. Nothing unconstitutional about that.

      • gruez 13 hours ago

        >The Pennsylvania High Court recently ruled that the Pennsylvania local police don't need a warrant to access your search history.

        How does this work? Does that mean if Pennsylvania police ask google nicely for it, then google isn't breaking the law in complying? Or that Google has to hand over the information even without a warrant?

    • j-bos 14 hours ago

      The other challenge is that in the modern era the houses, papers, and effects of most people have been partially signed off to corporate entities who are more than happy to consent away their access into our effects.

      • irishcoffee 13 hours ago

        > The other challenge is that in the modern era the houses, papers, and effects of most people have been partially signed off to corporate entities who are more than happy to consent away their access into our effects.

        Do you mean those who rent their homes?

        I rented for a long time. I bought a house. None of my house, papers, or effects are owned by anyone but myself. I guess a credit union owns the mortgage, but they haven't and won't sell it.

        To those who will jump to disagree with me about the credit union selling my mortgage: they won't. They don't engage in that market, never have.

      • WarOnPrivacy 13 hours ago

        > The other challenge is that in the modern era the houses, papers, and effects of most people have been partially signed off to corporate entities

        There are two issues here, each harms us on it's own and both are intertwined toward our detriment.

        The first is the deeply problematic 3rd Party Doctrine with established that we lose our rights when a 3rd party has control over our private content/information. What few stipulations there are in the precedent are routinely ignored or twisted by the courts (ex:voluntarily given). This allows governments to wholly ignore the 4th amendment altogether.

        The second is the utter lack of meaningful, well written privacy laws that should exist to protect individuals from corporate misuse and exploitation of our personal and private data.

        And even worse than Governments willfully violating our privacy rights (thanks to countless courts) and worse than corporations ceaseless leveraging our personal data against us - is that both (of every size) now openly collaborate to violate our privacy in every possible way they can.

  • nunez 10 hours ago

    Between AI improvements, laws like this and Telly, we are a few steps away from the telescreen.

    (I saw a Telly recently. This device should be terrifying, but "free" makes people make weird choices.)