Comment by wat10000

Comment by wat10000 2 days ago

52 replies

Your conclusion falls victim to the same conflation you’re calling out. If some sectors become drastically more efficient, society has become wealthier in terms of money, but not necessarily in terms of real resources.

For example, consider a case where finance becomes much more productive (in terms of $ per employee-hour) and raises wages to attract smart people, leading to fewer people becoming doctors because finance is much more attractive. Is society wealthier? The money says yes. The line goes up. But finance doesn’t set a broken bone or treat cancer. This may well have made society less wealthy in terms of what ordinary people actually care about.

simonh a day ago

The Baumol effect says wages for doctors will also have to go up. Society can afford this because it now has commensurately more resources due to increased efficiency. It’s a tide that raises all boats, precisely because of this effect. This is why a taxi in London costs and pays better than the same service in Cairo.

  • AnthonyMouse a day ago

    > Society can afford this because it now has commensurately more resources due to increased efficiency.

    Does it though? Suppose that Wall St has discovered a strategy, like high frequency trading, that produces nothing but allows the one doing it to extract a margin that would otherwise have gone to the second-fastest trader. Many people are employed in a competition to be the fastest because being the fastest is rewarded but it's a zero-sum game where nothing useful is produced and the players each have to continuously spend resources to keep running faster in order to stay in the same place.

    What benefit is the person now paying more for healthcare getting in exchange for this?

    > It’s a tide that raises all boats, precisely because of this effect.

    What if it's not all boats? Suppose it causes doctors to get paid more because people who have the wherewithal to become doctors could also work in finance, but it doesn't cause retail clerks to get paid more because Wall St isn't hiring them away from their existing jobs, and in the meantime they now have to pay more for healthcare.

    • bloppe a day ago

      > it doesn't cause retail clerks to get paid more because Wall St isn't hiring them away from their existing jobs

      Nobody with an existing job actually has to switch professions for Baumol to occur. As the pay gap widens, more kids would study finance and fewer kids would consider retail an adequate career, leading to a relative shortage of retail labor, raising retail wages.

      • AnthonyMouse a day ago

        Your premise is that the people who work in retail have the option of studying finance or medicine. Suppose they work in retail because they scored at the 20th percentile on entrance exams and couldn't get into college.

    • simonh a day ago

      High frequency trading does create benefits. It speeds up market corrections, increases liquidity, and means buyers and sellers get quicker execution closer to consensus market value.

      If financiers and doctors are wealthier, they have more disposable income, some of which they will spend in retail, benefiting retail clerks. They will also get taxed more, benefiting other tax payers.

      The Baumol effect is sometimes described as a disease. It isn’t. It’s fundamentally redistributive.

      • AnthonyMouse a day ago

        > It speeds up market corrections, increases liquidity, and means buyers and sellers get quicker execution closer to consensus market value.

        This is the BS that Wall St says whenever people complain about them doing it. Nobody actually benefits from getting their liquidity in 8ms instead of 8.2ms, and in fact it costs them the money the high frequency trader was making compared to having the exchange's computers do it without taking a margin for itself.

        > If financiers and doctors are wealthier, they have more disposable income, some of which they will spend in retail, benefiting retail clerks.

        Or they'll further outbid the people in retail on things like housing, making them poorer yet.

        > They will also get taxed more, benefiting other tax payers.

        Only if the other taxpayers actually get taxed less instead of the government giving the extra money to cronies.

  • derf_ a day ago

    Exactly. Even though Baumol himself used the phrase "Cost Disease", I think that framing distracts from the fact that it is a result of something desirable happening, namely increased efficiency in some sectors. You could also posit a case where some sectors become less efficient, due to badly conceived regulations, exhaustion of non-renewable resources, an unchecked monopoly, or some other factor, but you don't need a special mechanism to explain why prices rise in such a scenario.

    > ...consider a case where finance becomes much more productive... leading to fewer people becoming doctors because finance is much more attractive.

    This is the opposite of what one would expect from a sector whose efficiency increases, as modeled by Baumol. See the first bullet in the article: "The share of total employment in sectors with high productivity growth decreases, while that of low productivity sectors increases" (also see the detailed analysis in the Technical Description section). It might be theoretically possible that induced demand could still increase overall employment in a sector as its efficiency increases, but I think you have to make an argument why that would be true. During the industrial revolution, automation eliminated 98% of the labor required to produce a yard of cotton cloth, but between 1830 and 1900 the number of weavers in the US increased by a factor of 4, because demand increased due to lower prices [0]... although the US population also increased by a factor of 6, so as a percentage of the workforce weavers still declined, even as people consumed much more cloth per capita.

    [0] James Bessen, Learning by Doing - The Real Connection between Innovation, Wages, and Wealth (2015), pp. 96–97.

    • wat10000 a day ago

      I picked finance for my example because demand is practically unlimited. People only need so many clothes, but when your business comes from making money directly, there’s a lot of room for growth.

      Imagine some new math allows HFT to make more money. HFT firms wouldn’t start laying off quants. They’d probably hire more to try to capture more of that new money, and they’d have more money available for hiring.

  • ip26 a day ago

    It’s not like their wages will always go up exactly in proportion to your income. Goods and services that are afflicted will become less accessible if your own wages increase at a lower rate.

  • wat10000 a day ago

    Will doctors’ pay go up enough to retain the same number of doctors?

    • derektank a day ago

      Given the demand for healthcare is extremely inelastic, almost certainly.

AnimalMuppet 2 days ago

Finance funds hospitals and cancer research institutes - or at least, it enables the gathering and concentrating of resources to do so.

Now, advertising...

  • rwmj 2 days ago

    Some finance is needed and beneficial. The ability to form corporations and raise money through the stock market enhances many other fields of endeavour.

    But this can go too far. In London during 2000-2008, finance consumed every spare IT worker, as well as mathematicians and physicists. Salaries were far higher working for a bank than working in any other IT-related industry or start-up. Did this produce great works? Is London now better off because of this? In a word, no.

    • jimbokun 2 days ago

      What’s your basis for concluding “no”?

      London is a very desirable place to live.

    • nospice 2 days ago

      The problem I have with these arguments is that they're awfully close to the anti-tourism arguments you hear in tourist towns such as Tahoe. You have this influx of visitors and money, and there's a considerable number of residents who see it as uniformly negative: congestion, high property prices, and so on. Imagine what it could've been without all these rich tech bros!

      But then, the US is full of picturesque small towns where the original heavy industry (logging, copper mine, steel mill) disappeared and tourism did not fill the gap. And all the young people moved out in search of better opportunities, except for the ones addicted to meth. There's no money, no jobs, no hope.

      Every socioeconomic shift has downsides, but it doesn't automatically mean that the alternative is better. Broad economic gains tend to lift all boats because money changes hands.

      • wat10000 2 days ago

        It also doesn’t mean the alternative is worse. Nothing says such a shift had to be overall good.

      • rwmj 2 days ago

        In the case of London, it was misallocation, not an influx of anything. It would have been better if the programmers had been founding start up companies, and the physicists had been researching science, instead of working for banks.

  • yunyu 2 days ago

    Advertising enables innovation-producing firms to drive awareness of their services in a cost effective manner, and for less informed consumers to understand what is available on the market. Your typical physician might not be fully caught up on what is the state of the art in arthritis treatments, but advertising enables this to happen.

    • blargey a day ago

      Advertising as a source of consumer information is a market for lemons in and of itself. Everyone is free to claim innovation and deliver trash, and internet brands are a dime a dozen. Even just keeping out overt fraud/scams or propaganda campaigns is apparently a losing battle for platforms.

      Reviewers/Influencers/interest-publications are often just a half-step above banner ads, but at least has more incentives than just "loudly capture attention" and "publish anything that pays the algorithmic sticker price".

    • ben_w 2 days ago

      > in a cost effective manner

      Facebook is currently showing me these ads:

      Lady's earrings (see my name), Pixel 10 (I'm theoretically an iPhone developer), cat food (I don't own any pet let alone a cat), special offers from a supermarket I would have been shopping at anyway even if they had not told me about the offers, a sponsored government message because apparently the Bundesministerium für Gesundheit don't have a better method of contacting German residents than by buying ads from a US social network (I have previously seen such from the British government telling me that some breed of dog was now banned even though I don't own a dog and also live in Germany)…

      … but none of that's what's importantly wrong.

      Cost effective? It's an auction, each ad in isolation may be fair (but there's reason even then to be suspicious), but in aggregate the ad sector is an all-pay auction.

      There's a massive over-supply of solutions because all the startups chase the same ideas at about the same times, and the only one of them to get big is the one that pays enough to the gatekeepers of eyeballs to win the all-pay auction bidding for mindshare.

      If everyone stopped advertising, the knowledge of solutions would still diffuse, the winner would be so by word of mouth. The difference is that the 1200 "trusted partners" on all the GDPR popups wouldn't collect rent on advising people on the best strategy for selling their user's privacy and battery life and mobile data allowance for money that those users never get to see, and the people buying those eyeballs wouldn't be wasting their VC runway making something other than the product.

      • yunyu 2 days ago

        The fact that your Facebook ads are worse is probably because you're in the EU. I'm in the US, and I am getting fairly relevant ads for Broadway shows, data infrastructure products, discounted hotel packages, and climbing gym subscriptions - things that I am actually considering purchasing. And we haven't even brought up intent-based ads (Google search).

        Word of mouth benefits incumbents. Advertising at least enables newcomers to temporarily burn money to gain mindshare, while “slow diffusion” will lock society into a “nobody ever got fired for buying IBM” state forever.

    • wat10000 2 days ago

      The only way this should happen is if it’s a fake arthritis treatment meant to detect doctors who learn about treatments from advertising instead of legitimate sources, so they can be prevented from practicing medicine.

      • yunyu 2 days ago

        What are legitimate sources in your definition? Should physicians be expected to spend all their free time reading every single study in every medical journal or conference, even for niche areas that they don't usually encounter? Should the average diabetic/arthritic patient need to obsessively pore over academic reports to stay informed about their condition? Should advertisers be banned from sponsoring journals or conferences? This is an extremely ill informed line of reasoning.