Comment by watwut

> and still think that giving it to kids as introduction to reading is absurd.

But that is not what is happening. Introduction to reading happens pre-school to class two, historic books come from say class 6 onwards.

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watwut a day ago

> But that is not what is happening. Introduction to reading happens pre-school to class two, historic books come from say class 6 onwards.
That is exactly what is happening. The pre-schooler do not really read books, that is an absurd claim. They puzzle out words and sentences. It takes so much effort, they loose attention one paragraph in and dont really recall what happened on the last page.
Giving historic books to grade 6 is exactly the absurd thing that will convince them books cant be fun. It will become totality of their reading and the idea that reading books could be fun will be lost on them entirely.
And unless the parents really went out of their way to introduce them to interesting books, to try again and again with different books, you are loosing them with that entirely. Because this will be the only book they read last 4 months which is "forever" at that age.

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- 1718627440 a day ago
  
  > The pre-schooler do not really read books, that is an absurd claim.
  And a claim I haven't made.
  > They puzzle out words and sentences.
  Exactly, which is introduction to reading. They essentially perceive whole words as glyph until some adult points them to the concept of letters (or if they are very smart, they figure it out themselves). When they enter school they start to learn that systematically. After half a year they can typically read short stories. (Here school starts in August/September, and at my family, reading the Christmas story was always the responsibility of the first-grader. Later that year there had been reading competitions and book talks in class.) By the end of class two, you have read tons of books. (Likely still below 100, but still quite some.)
  > 4 months which is "forever" at that age.
  Exactly and think of what they learn in 6 years. They doubled their age in that time.
  > Giving historic books to grade 6 is exactly the absurd thing that will convince them books cant be fun.
  I think that really depends on what you mean by historic books. Colloquial books from a century ago are indistinguishable from contemporary books, 200 years ago, they start to have some older words, but are still readable by a young child. 500 years ago is still intelligible, but for a child becomes more something to laugh at, rather then something they read, do to all those words, which are now considered to be improper. Your child likely won't read that on its own motivation, although it can be fun for a few minutes. 1000 years ago, the book will be in Latin, so your child won't even try.
  The issue with books in the "native language" classes is much less their raw age, but that they are mostly plays or the new literature genre from that time. To me the play from 50 years ago, was really boring, but the fairy tales from 200 years ago was what I read at night below the blanket, when my parents wanted me to sleep. Yes school lead to me loosing interest in books, but that was not because the book was boring per se, but because we dissected the books until it was like a dead corpse.
  > And unless the parents really went out of their way to introduce them to interesting books, to try again and again with different books, you are loosing them with that entirely.
  Not really. The issue at that age is more the book supply then the demand. Reading is maybe 35-45% [0] of their wake time at that age. Try reading that much as an adult. At some point I needed to resort to reading the bible (the boring parts), because there was no book in my bookcase I haven't read, after I have already read all the history books in my parents bookcase, that sounded fun.
  [0] To do the math:
  A child sleeps >10h at night and has 1-1.5h after-lunch nap. So say 14 wake hours, Of this they spend 6 hours in school, which is mostly math or english, so say 40% reading. They take the school bus to and from school, which is mostly talking and reading. After school they also read, so maybe 2h. Then they likely stay on the playground for 3 hours or something, so no reading during that time. Before or after they do homework, most of which involves reading. English anyway and in math you also need to read the exercise descriptions. Then in the late afternoon and before going to bed they still read a bit of their own books, so maybe again 2h.
  (6*0.4 + 2 + 2) / 14 = 45.7%
  
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  watwut a day ago
  
  First grade kids are still learning letters and are not reading books yet. Your family is an exception. Second grade kids are NOT reading tons of books yet. That is just untrue.
  > Exactly and think of what they learn in 6 years. They doubled their age in that time.
  I do know what they learn in 6 grade. You seem to start with some imaginary learning.
  > Colloquial books from a century ago are indistinguishable from contemporary books
  They are 100% distinguishable. By words, by sentence construction, by topics, by the way plot develops. Oh, and mostly by how characters act.
  > Not really. The issue at that age is more the book supply then the demand.
  Literally the only source of interesting books are parents. And no, english and math textbook does not count as fun reading. Neither does Shakespeare assigned in school. There is no infinite supply of fun books coming to kids.
  > They take the school bus to and from school, which is mostly talking and reading
  No one reads books on their way to school these days. They just dont.
  > After school they also read, so maybe 2h
  Kids dont read after school except for homework.
  > English anyway and in math you also need to read the exercise descriptions.
  This is ridiculous.
  > Then in the late afternoon and before going to bed they still read a bit of their own books, so maybe again 2h.
  They dont. Because, unless their parents tried again and again and radncomly hit something fun, they dont even know fun books exist.
  
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  1718627440 20 hours ago
  
  You clearly have had different experiences than me, most of which I disagree with, but it boils down to the stuff I already wrote. So I cite some parts from the current curriculum from my German state. I translate some parts, but if you want to read it all, use a translator.
  So the source is this: https://www.schulportal.sachsen.de/lplandb/lehrplan/88
  As a PDF: https://www.schulportal.sachsen.de/lplandb/lehrplan/file/88/...
  Classes 1 and 2 are grouped together, so the actual split is at the distinction of the teacher, which is generally the same.
  Summary:
  written language acquisition 90 lesson hours listening and speaking 50 lesson hours writing for yourself and others 40 lesson hours writing correctly 40 lesson hours reading/properly using media 60 lesson hours inspecting language 45 lesson hours properly using digital media 13 lesson hours optional compulsory: at the trace of letters from the world of fairy tails playing and designing with words favorite poems
  A single year has about ~200 lesson hours and I think these are mostly done in order.
  Goals (I only translated the paragraph about reading):
  Students develop joy in reading, in an exiting reading environment and through diverse reading offerings. They learn the conditions for their individual reading culture and develop an interest in independently handling of texts. The Students know texts from different genres and select from various text offerings. They exercise in "reading for the purpose of comprehension". The students read texts silently according to simple instructions, develop an understanding of the content in a reasonable amount of time and are able to reproduce it in their own words. They use different approaches for "reading for the purpose of comprehension" (this is a term of art in German, I do not know the proper term in English). The students know and use various media formats for learning, news acquirement and entertainment.
  written language acquisition 90 lesson hours
  insights into the meaning of reading and writing: - writing as a communication tool - writing as a system of glyphs - free (meaning on their own and fluently) reading and writing mastering the structure of written language - developing a sophisticated sensing ability (audio, video, rhythm, melody, kinesthetic, tactile) - sounds and complexes of sounds - letters and sets of letters - sound-letter-relation - words mastering reading techniques - analysis and synthesis - reading of words, sentences and texts - recognizing the shape of words as a whole - constructing words from left to right - reading across words and lines simultaneously - skimming through word groups - sentence limits and intonation - reading out to people knowing techniques for "reading for the purpose of comprehension" of words, sentences and texts - repeating the text content with own words - checking the read for internal consistence - conversing with others about a text - reading aloud, quite and silent developing a printed writing as a initial writing - printed writing as a form of written communication - writing self-made small texts for others - writing with computers and mobile devices application of "cursive" (called Schulausgansschrift = final school writing [https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schulausgangsschrift]) - differentiation of macro and micro motoric skills - testing of different types of pens/pencils - understanding of different letter shapes and connections (in different font sizes) - writing of words, sentences and texts - recognizing and overcoming individual writing difficulties on your own - developing an acceptable writing speed getting insights into the design of written works (same word as for scientific papers in German, but of course it is not about that here)
  This is done in the first 90 lessons, which at 5 lessons per week, 4 weeks per month means 4-5 months, which fits my claim that they are generally able to read somewhat fluently after half a year. This is the minimum required by the state for every child, talented children will of course be faster.
  I do not feel like translating the second part about reading right now, tell me if you actually care about it, I don't feel like being a translator for nothing. It is called "reading/properly using media" and boils down to introduction of literary and basic grammar analysis. It is obviously part of class 2.
  > They are 100% distinguishable. By words, by sentence construction, by topics, by the way plot develops. Oh, and mostly by how characters act.
  As a child my favorite book was "Emil und die Detektive" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emil_and_the_Detectives) from 1929, I did not perceive anything to be odd, and it was indistinguishable from modern works for me. I did not think of it as being nearly a century old, that is just a normal child book. Maybe a linguist can tell you how this work obviously must be from that specific era, but a child very much can't tell you. What was also very popular in my class/school at that age was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Three_Investigators#German..., of which the German version is from 1968 and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Famous_Five, which is from 1942.
  > Literally the only source of interesting books are parents.
  And the shelf in the class room and the school library and the local library and random book exchanges on the street and books from friends (might count as from parents for you).
  > And no, english and math textbook does not count as fun reading.
  No, but they count as reading exercise, which is needed before you read fast enough that you enjoy reading yourself over getting read to and to be able to read in secret below the blanket.
  > Neither does Shakespeare assigned in school.
  In class 1 or 2?? These kinds of things only came maybe in class 9+.
  > There is no infinite supply of fun books coming to kids.
  Well, when they gain access to a computer (which is not a good idea, but they are children, so they will), they literally have.
  > No one reads books on their way to school these days. They just dont.
  Well, five years ago when I used the tram to go to school they definitely did. And my younger brother still carries books in his backpack he is not supposed to have.
  > Kids dont read after school except for homework.
  Common speak for yourself. In the primary school I still see people sitting reading on the floor.
  > This is ridiculous.
  Ok, how so?
  > Because, unless their parents tried again and again and radncomly hit something fun, they dont even know fun books exist.
  How would it be possible to keep it secret from them that child books exist? I don't understand your reasoning.
  
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