Comment by darth_avocado 11 hours ago
Isn’t that what Michael Burry is complaining about? That five years is actually too generous when it comes to depreciation of these assets and that companies are being too relaxed with that estimate. The real depreciation is more like 2-3 years for these GPUs that cost tens of thousands of dollars a piece.
Flops per watt is relevant for a new data center build-out where you're bottlenecked on electricity, but I'm not sure it matters so much for existing data centers. Electricity is such as small percentage of total cost of ownership. The marginal cost of running a 5 year old GPU for 2 more years is small. The husk of a data center is cheap. It's the cooling, power delivery equipment, networking, GPUs etc that costs money, and when you retrofit data centers for the latest and greatest GPUs you have to throw away a lot of good equipment. Makes more sense to build new data centers as long as inference demand doesn't level off.
How different is this from rental car companies changing over their fleets? I don't know, this is a genuine question. The cars cost 3-4x as much and last about 2x as far as I know, and the secondary market is still alive.
> How different is this from rental car companies changing over their fleets?
New generations of GPUs leapfrog in efficiency (performance per watt) and vehicles don't? Cars don't get exponentially better every 2–3 years, meaning the second-hand market is alive and well. Some of us are quite happy driving older cars (two parked outside our home right now, both well over 100,000km driven).
If you have a datacentre with older hardware, and your competitor has the latest hardware, you face the same physical space constraints, same cooling and power bills as they do? Except they are "doing more" than you are...
Would we could call it "revenue per watt"?
The traditional framing would be cost per flop. At some point your total costs per flop over the next 5 years will be lower if you throw out the old hardware and replace it with newer more efficient models. With traditional servers that's typically after 3-5 years, with GPUs 2-3 years sounds about right
The major reason companies keep their old GPUs around much longer with now are the supply constraints
The used market is going to be absolutely flooded with millions of old cards. I imagine shipping being the most expensive cost for them. The supply side will be insane.
Think 100 cards but only 1 buyer as a ratio. Profit for ebay sellers will be on "handling", or inflated shipping costs.
eg shipping and handling.
Cards don't "expire". There are alternate strategies to selling cards, but if they don't sell the cards, then there is no transfer of ownership, and therefore NVIDIA is entering some form of leasing model.
If NVIDIA is leasing, then you can't get use those cards as collateral. You can't also write off depreciation. Part of what we're discussing is that terms of credit are being extended too generously, with depreciation in the mix.
The could require some form of contractual arrangement, perhaps volume discounts for cards, if they agree to destroy them at a fixed time. That's very weird though, and I've never heard of such a thing for datacenter gear.
They may protect themselves on the driver side, but someone could still write OSS.
I think it's a bit different because a rental car generates direct revenue that covers its cost. These GPU data centers are being used to train models (which themselves quickly become obsolete) and provide inference at a loss. Nothing in the current chain is profitable except selling the GPUs.
> and provide inference at a loss
You say this like it's some sort of established fact. My understanding is the exact opposite and that inference is plenty profitable - the reason the companies are perpetually in the red is that they're always heavily investing in the next, larger generation.
I'm not Anthropic's CFO so i can't really prove who's right one way or the other, but I will note that your version relies on everyone involved being really, really stupid.
> the secondary market is still alive.
this is the crux. Will these data center cards, if a newer model came out with better efficiency, have a secondary market to sell to?
It could be that second hand ai hardware going into consumers' hands is how they offload it without huge losses.
And the big ones don't even have typical PCIe sockets, they are useless outside of behemoth rackmount servers requiring massive power and cooling capacity that even well-equipped homelabs would have trouble providing!
Data centre cards a don’t have fans and don’t have video out these days.
That's exactly the thing. It's only about bookkeeping.
The big AI corps keep pushing depreciation for GPUs into the future, no matter how long the hardware is actually useful. Some of them are now at 6 years. But GPUs are advancing fast, and new hardware brings more flops per watt, so there's a strong incentive to switch to the latest chips. Also, they run 24/7 at 100% capacity, so after only 1.5 years, a fair share of the chips is already toast. How much hardware do they have in their books that's actually not useful anymore? Noone knows! Slower depreciation means more profit right now (for those companies that actually make profit, like MS or Meta), but it's just kicking the can down the road. Eventually, all these investments have to get out of the books, and that's where it will eat their profits. In 2024, the big AI corps invested about $1 trillion in AI hardware, next year is expected to be $2 trillion. Only the interest payments for that are crazy. And all of this comes on top of the fact that none of the these companies actually make any profit at all with AI. (Except Nvidia of course) There's just no way this will pan out.