tyingq 17 hours ago

If I had the cash, I could sell dollar bills for 50 cents and do a $7b run rate :)

  • simonw 17 hours ago

    If that was genuinely happening here - Anthropic were selling inference for less than the power and data center costs needed to serve those tokens - it would indeed be a very bad sign for their health.

    I don't think they're doing that.

    Estimates I've seen have their inference margin at ~60% - there's one from Morgan Stanley in this article, for example: https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-anthropic-billions-cl...

    • 1shooner 17 hours ago

      >The bank's analysts then assumed Anthropic gross profit margins of 60%, and estimated that 75% of related costs are spent on AWS cloud services.

      Not estimate, assumption.

      • robotresearcher 15 hours ago

        Those are estimates. Notice they didn’t assume 0% or a million %. They chose numbers that are a plausible approximation of the true unknown values, also known as an estimate.

      • simonw 16 hours ago

        If Morgan Stanley are willing to stake their credibility on an assumption I'm going to take that assumption seriously.

    • viscanti 16 hours ago

      They had pretty drastic price cuts on Opus 4.5. It's possible they're now selling inference at a loss to gain market share, or at least that their margins are much lower. Dario claims that all their previous models were profitable (even after accounting for research costs), but it's unclear that there's a path to keeping their previous margins and expanding revenue as fast or faster than their costs (each model has been substantially more expensive than the previous model).

      • simonw 16 hours ago

        It wouldn't surprise me if they found ways to reduce the cost of serving Opus 4.5. All of the model vendors have been consistently finding new optimizations over the last few years.

      • manmal 15 hours ago

        I sure hope serving Opus 4.5 at the current cost is sustainable. It’s the first model I can actually use for serious work.

    • verdverm 16 hours ago

      I've been wondering about this generally... Are the per-request API prices I'm paying at a profit or a loss? My billing would suggest they are not making a profit on the monthly fees (unless there are a bunch of enterprise accounts in group deals not being used, I am one of those I think)

    • bpavuk 17 hours ago

      but those AI/ML researchers aka LLM optimization staff are not cheap. their salaries have skyrocketed, and some are being fought for like top-tier soccer stars and actors/actresses

    • hollerith 17 hours ago

      The leaders of Anthropic, OpenAI and DeepMind all hope to create models that are much more powerful than the ones they have now.

      A large portion of the many tens of billions of dollars they have at their disposal (OpenAI alone raised 40 billion in April) is probably going toward this ambition—basically a huge science experiment. For example, when an AI lab offers an individual researcher a $250 million pay package, it can only be because they hope that the researcher can help them with something very ambitious: there's no need to pay that much for a single employee to help them reduce the costs of serving the paying customers they have now.

      The point is that you can be right that Anthropic is making money on the marginal new user of Claude, but Anthropic's investors might still get soaked if the huge science experiment does not bear fruit.

      • JumpCrisscross 17 hours ago

        > their investors might still take a bath if the very-ambitious aspect of their operations do not bear fruit

        Not really. If the technology stalls where it is, AI still have a sizable chunk of the dollars previously paid to coders, transcribers, translators and the like.

  • mgfist 17 hours ago

    Surely you understand the bet Anthropic is making, and why it's a bit different than selling dollars at a discount

    • myhf 17 hours ago

      Because discounted dollar bills are still a tangible asset, but churning language models are intangible?

    • beepbooptheory 16 hours ago

      Maybe for those of us not-too-clever ones, what is the bet? Why is it different? Would be pretty great to have like a clear articulation of this!

      • shwaj 14 hours ago

        The bet, (I would have thought) obviously, is that AI will be a huge part of humanity’s future, and that Anthropic will be able to get a big piece of that pie.

        This is (I would have thought) obviously different from selling dollars for $0.50, which is a plan with zero probability of profit.

        Edit: perhaps the question was meant to be about how Bun fits in? But the context of this sub-thread has veered to achieving a $7 billion revenue.

  • liuliu 17 hours ago

    You are saying that you can raise $7b debt at double-digit interest rate. I am doubtful. While $7b is not a big number, the Madoff scam is only ~$70b in total over many years.

    • robocat 14 hours ago

      > the Madoff scam is only ~$70b in total

      Incorrect - that was the fraudulent NAV.

      An estimate for true cash inflow that was lost is about $20 billion (which is still an enormous number!)

    • tyingq 16 hours ago

      No, I'm scamming myself. Halving my fortune because I believe karma will somehow repay me ten fold some time later.

      • ineedasername 16 hours ago

        Somehow? I've been keeping an eye on my inbox, waiting to get a karma vesting plan from HN, for ages. What's this talk of somehow?

  • mritchie712 16 hours ago

    you have anthropic confused with something like lovable.

    anthropic's unit margins are fine, many lovable-like businesses are not.

    • tyingq 13 hours ago

      Or I'm just saying revenue numbers alone don't prove anything useful when you have deep pockets.

indemnity 13 hours ago

I am fairly skeptical about many AI companies, but as someone else pointed out, Anthropic has 10x'ed their revenue for the past 3 years. 100m->1b->10b. While past performance no predictor of future results, their product is solid and to me looks like they have found PMF.

weakfish 17 hours ago

Idk, I’m no business expert by any means, but I’m a hell of a lot more _scared_ by a company burning so much that’s $7b is still losing

Sephr 11 hours ago

They don't need revenue, they need a community. I don't know how this acquisition will affect that.