Comment by sschnei8
Comment by sschnei8 a day ago
Interesting choice of Pandas in this day and age. Maybe he’s after imparting general concepts that you could apply to any tabular data manipulator rather than selecting for the latest shiny tool.
Comment by sschnei8 a day ago
Interesting choice of Pandas in this day and age. Maybe he’s after imparting general concepts that you could apply to any tabular data manipulator rather than selecting for the latest shiny tool.
Looks like it. From https://jakevdp.github.io/PythonDataScienceHandbook/00.00-pr...:
> Copyright 2016
why? It's the industry standard as far as my reach goes.
What other framework would you replace it with?
No, polars or spark is not a good answer, those are optimized for data engineering performance, not a holistic approach to data science.
You can assert whatever you want, but Polars is a great answer. The performance improvements are secondary to me compared to the dramatic improvement in interface.
Today all serious DS work will ultimately become data engineering work anyway. The time when DS can just fiddle around in notebooks all day has passed.
Pandas is widely adopted and deeply integrated into the Python ecosystem. Meanwhile, Polars remains a small niche, and it's one of those hype technologies that will likely be dead in 3 years once most of its users realise that it offers them no actual practical advantages over Pandas.
If you are dealing with huge data sets, you are probably using Spark or something like Dask already where jobs can run in the cloud. If you need speed and efficiency on your local machine, you use NumPy outright. And if you really, really need speed, you rewrite it in C/C++.
Polars is trying to solve an issue that just doesn't exist for the vast majority of users.
Arguably Spark solves a problem that does not exist anymore: single node performance with tools like DuckDB and Polars is so good that there’s no need for more complex orchestration anymore, and these tools are sufficiently user-friendly that there is little point to switching to Pandas for smaller datasets.
> Pandas is widely adopted and deeply integrated into the Python ecosystem.
This is pretty laughable. Yes there are very DS specific tools that make good use of Pandas, but `to_pandas` in Polars trivially solves this. The fact that Pandas always feels like injecting some weird DSL into existing Python code bases is one of the major reasons why I really don't like it.
> If you are dealing with huge data sets, you are probably using Spark or something like Dask already where jobs can run in the cloud. If you need speed and efficiency on your local machine, you use NumPy outright. And if you really, really need speed, you rewrite it in C/C++.
Have you used Polars at all? Or for that matter written significant Pandas outside of a notebook? The number one benefit of Polars, imho, is that Polars works using Expressions that allow you to trivially compose and reuse fundamental logic when working with data in a way the works well with other Python code. This solves the biggest problem with Pandas is that it does not abstract well.
Not to mention that Pandas is really poor dataframe experience outside of it's original use case which was financial time series. The entire multi-index experience is awful and I know that either you are calling 'reset_index' multiple times in your Pandas logic or you have bugs.
> once most of its users realise that it offers them no actual practical advantages over Pandas
What? Speed and better nested data support (arrays/JSON) alone are extremely useful to every data scientist.
My produtivity skyrocketed after switching from pandas to polars.
>Today DS work will ultimately become data engineering work anyway.
Oh yeah? Well in my ivory tower the work stops being serious once it becomes engineering, how do you like that elitism?!
"Data Science" has never been related to academic research, it has always emerged in a business context. I wouldn't say that researchers at Deep Mind are "data scientists", they are academic researchers who focus on shipping papers. If you're in a pure research environment, nobody cares if you write everything in Matlab.
But the last startup I was at tried to take a similar approach to research was unable to ship a functioning product and will likely disappear in a year from now. FAIR has been largely disbanded in favor of the way more shipping-centric MSL, and the people I know at Deep Mind are increasingly finding themselves under pressure to actually produce things.
Since you've been hanging out in an ivory tower then you might be unaware that during the peek DS frenzy (2016-2019) there were companies where data scientists were allowed to live entirely in notebooks and it was someone else's problem to ship their notebooks. Today if you have that expectation you won't last long at most companies, if you can even find a job in the first place.
On top of that, I know quite a few people at the major LLM teams and, based on my conversations, all of them are doing pretty serious data engineering work to get things shipped even if they were hired for there modeling expertise. It's honestly hard to even run serious experiments at the scale of modern day LLMs without being pretty proficient at data engineering related tasks.
I have not work with Polars, but I would imagine any incompatibility with existing libraries (e.g. plotting libraries like plotnine, bokeh) would quickly put me off.
It is a curse I know. I would also choose a better interface. Performance is meh to me, I use SQL if i want to do something at scale that involves row/column data.
This is a non-issue with Polars dataframes to_pandas() method. You get all the performance of Polars for cleaning large datasets, and to_pandas() gives you backwards compatibility with other libraries. However, plotnine is completely compatible with Polars dataframe objects.
I probably wouldn’t rewrite an entire data science stack that used pandas, but most people would use polars if starting a new project today.
The R ecosystem has had a similar evolution with the tidyverse, it was just a little further ago. As for Matlab, I initially learned statistical programming with it a long time ago, but I’m not sure I’ve ever seen it in the wild. I don’t know what’s going on there.
I’m actually quite partial to R myself, and I used to use it extensively back when quick analysis was more valuable to my career. Things have probably progressed, but I dropped it in favor of python because python can integrate into production systems whereas R was (and maybe still is) geared towards writing reports. One of the best things to happen recently in data science is the plotnine library, bringing the grammar of graphics to python imho.
The fact is that today, if you want career opportunities as a data scientist, you need to be fluent in python.
Mostly what's going on with Matlab in the wild is that it costs at least $10k a seat as soon as you are no longer at an academic institution.
Yes, there is Octave but often the toolboxes aren't available or compatible so you're rewriting everything anyway. And when you start rewriting things for Octave you learn/remember what trash Matlab actually is as a language or how big a pain doing anything that isn't what Mathworks expects actually is.
To be fair: Octave has extended Matlab's syntax with amazing improvements (many inspired by numpy and R). It really makes me angry that Mathworks hasn't stolen Octave's innovations and I hate every minute of not being able to broadcast and having to manually create temp variables because you can't chain indexing whenever I have to touch actual Matlab. So to be clear Octave is somewhat pleasant and for pure numerical syntax superior to numpy.
But the siren call of Python is significant. Python is not the perfect language (for anything really) but it is a better-than-good language for almost everything and it's old enough and used by so many people that someone has usually scratched what's itching already. Matlab's toolboxes can't compete with that.
I love R, but how can you make that claim when R uses three distinct object-oriented systems all at the same time? R might seem stable only because it carries along with it 50 years of history of programming languages (part of it's charm, where else can you see the generic function approach to OOP in a language that's still evolving?)
Finally, as someone who wrote a lot of R pre-tidyverse, I've seen the entire ecosystem radically change over my career.
Pandas is generally awful unless you're just living in a notebook (and even then it's probably least favorite implementation of the 'data frame' concept).
Since Pandas lacks Polars' concept of an Expression, it's actually quite challenging to programmatically interact with non-trivial Pandas queries. In Polars the query logic can be entirely independent of the data frame while still referencing specific columns of the data frame. This makes Polars data frames work much more naturally with typical programming abstractions.
Pandas multi-index is a bad idea in nearly all contexts other than it's original use case: financial time series (and I'll admit, if you're working with purely financial time series, then Pandas feels much better). Sufficiently large Pandas code bases are littered with seemingly arbitrary uses of 'reset_index', there are many times where multi-index will create bugs, and, most important, I've never seen any non-financial scenario where anyone has ever used Multi-index to their advantage.
Finally Pandas is slow, which is honestly the least priority for me personally, but using Polars is so refreshing.
What other data frames have you used? Having used R's native dataframes extensively (the way they make use of indexing is so much nicer) in addition to Polars both are drastically preferable to Pandas. My experience is that most people use Pandas because it has been the only data frame implementation in Python. But personally I'd rather just not use data frames if I'm forced to used Pandas. Could you expand on what you like about Pandas over other data frames models you've worked with?
It was originally published in 2016, and I think this is still the first edition.