Comment by duped

Comment by duped a day ago

Print debugging is fine and all but I find that it pays massive dividends to learn how to use a debugger and actually inspect the values in scope rather than guessing which are worth printing. It also is useless when you need to debug a currently running system and can't change the code.

And since you need to translate it anyway, there's not much benefit in my mind to using something like msgpack which is more compact and self describing, you just need a decoder to convert to json when you display it.

themafia a day ago

> rather than guessing

I'm not guessing. I'm using my knowledge of the program and the error together to decide what to print. I never find the process laborious and I almost always get the right set of variables in the first debug run.

The only time I use a debugger is when working on someone else's code.

Reply View 4 replies

duped a day ago

That's just an educated guess. You can also do it with a debugger.

Reply View | 3 replies
- mekoka a day ago
  
  The debugger is fine, but it's not the key to unlock some secret skill level that you make it out to be. https://lemire.me/blog/2016/06/21/i-do-not-use-a-debugger/
  
  Reply View | 2 replies
  
  duped 21 hours ago
  
  I didn't say it's some arcane skill, just that it's a useful one. I would also agree that _reading the code_ to find a bug is the most useful debugging tool. Debuggers are second. Print debugging third.
  And that lines up with some of the appeals to authority there that are good, and that are bad (edited to be less toxic)
  
  Reply View | 1 reply
  
  mekoka 16 hours ago
  
  Even though I'm using the second person, I actually don't care at all to convince you particularly. You sound pretty set in your ways and that's perfectly fine. But there are other readers on HN who are already pretty efficient at log debugging or are developing the required analytical skills and I wanted to debunk the unsubstantiated and possibly misleading claims in your comments of some superiority in using a debugger for those people.
  The logger vs debugger debate is decades old, with no argument suggesting that the latter is a clear winner, on the contrary. An earlier comment explained the log debugging process: carefully thinking about the code and well chosen spots to log the data structure under analysis. The link I posted was to confirms it as a valid methodology. Overall code analysis is the general debugging skill you want to sharpen. If you have it and decide to work with a debugger, it will look like log debugging, which is why many skilled programmers may choose to revert to just logging after a while. Usage of a debugger then tends to be focused on situations when the code itself is escaping you (e.g. bad code, intricate code, foreign code, etc).
  If you're working on your own software and feel that you often need a debugger, maybe your analytical skills are atrophying and you should work on thinking more carefully about the code.
  
  Reply View | 0 replies

bdavisx a day ago

Debuggers are great when you can use them. Where I work (financial/insurance) we are not allowed to debug on production servers. I would guess that's true in a lot of high security environments.

So the skill of knowing how to "println" debug is still very useful.

Reply View 0 replies