Comment by soloridindan

Comment by soloridindan 2 days ago

I think anything that relies on reflex alone is flawed design. You can design around this, by for example in Dota2 it doesen't matter how fast you click an entity, because the turnrate of your character is limited, so a person clicking reasonably fast and a bot clicking in 0.01ms both arrive there at the same time. Precision also doesn't matter, because a player can click the icon of the enemy instead of trying to match the pixels on screen. MMO scripts that use information already given by the game just seem like the MMO should invest in UX instead of trying to ban people for using the tools the game already gives them.

Levitz 2 days ago

>for example in Dota2 it doesen't matter how fast you click an entity, because the turnrate of your character is limited, so a person clicking reasonably fast and a bot clicking in 0.01ms both arrive there at the same time. Precision also doesn't matter, because a player can click the icon of the enemy instead of trying to match the pixels on screen.

Even with turnrate, reaction time is very relevant. Reaction time allows you to silence enemies midcast, or to pop a shield, or a BKB, or some other instant measure. Turnrate doesn't mean reaction time doesn't matter, it means the direction you are facing matters.

As for precision, yes it does matter, ask any Phoenix player who gets hexed mid-flight.

People cheat in Dota in these very terms, it's absurd to argue it doesn't matter.

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vkou 2 days ago

Unless DOTA2 is running at a ~3 tick rate (Which it's not), even taking account processing delays and action batching, a bot will always have faster reaction times than an actual player. It will also never misclick.

This problem is magnified in a shooter game, which would be unplayable with that kind of batching, but where a cheater with an aimbot is actually impossible for a legitimate player to beat.

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soloridindan 2 days ago

After you click, the character will begin to turn, which can take several hundred ms. A delta of couple ms compared to the time it takes to turn is completely negligible and even an inch better positioning of a character, or having a character with items or stats that makes them turn faster (because picks are asymmetric) will make several magnitudes more of an impact.
If your game allows your sights to just teleport on people's heads and take that as the winning condition then that just sounds like bad design, there's no reason to allow infinitely fast movement and omitting strategy even from a shooter

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- komali2 2 days ago
  
  > If your game allows your sights to just teleport on people's heads and take that as the winning condition then that just sounds like bad design, there's no reason to allow infinitely fast movement and omitting strategy even from a shooter
  This is interesting, because I feel like the fundamental gameplay of an fps is players exposing themselves to each other's field of view, and then trying to click the other's head first. Skill is a measure of map knowledge (so you can try to expose yourself to a possible field of view but not where the enemy is actually looking at that moment) and speed of clicking head.
  How would you design FPSs to remove this "bad game design?"
  
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  DJBunnies 2 days ago
  
  > How would you design FPSs to remove this "bad game design?"
  I think we just need to accept that bots will always be better at reaction based KPIs & abusing "knowing" too much game state, we should just remove those conditions.
  1) Move most of the application logic to the server, the client should be a fairly dumb terminal that knows how to render and accept inputs, and only receives the state that it needs. No more spying issues.
  2) Just give everybody auto aim & immediate/auto controlled firing, etc. No more aim bot issues.
  3) Improve the quality of gameplay around the types of interactions which bots are bad at. Decision making, strategy, communication, execution, adaptation.
  
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- Hikikomori 2 days ago
  
  >If your game allows your sights to just teleport on people's heads and take that as the winning condition then that just sounds like bad design, there's no reason to allow infinitely fast movement and omitting strategy even from a shooter
  From the servers perspective you always kinda do that for fast movements as the client send rate usually isn't more than 60hz.
  
  Reply View | 0 replies

bluecalm 2 days ago

There is rampant cheating in online chess and poker as well, you know? You can have an opinion about what constitutes a better game for humans: should it be about making better decisions, arriving at them faster or being fast and precise with your mouse but the reality is bots/assistance can make you unplayable in all of those domains.

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