Comment by viccis

Comment by viccis 3 days ago

10 replies

View on Hacker News

Yep, I've seen this with a lot of my friends who did a similar thing. HR employees screening you out alone is a huge problem.

I have some middle and upper middle class gen X and older friends giving their children TERRIBLE advice about how degrees aren't worth it anymore and you get more out of getting started in your career ASAP than spending 4 years in school. The problem is that a BS now is like a high school diploma when they grew up, and if you don't have one, then in all likelihood, you will struggle to not be downwardly mobile, as it's the new middle class gatekeeping tool.

People should NOT listen to anyone over 45-50 or so who tells them college isn't necessary. Those people grew up in a world that no longer exists.

Another example of bad gen X / boomer advice is to knock out core credits in community college and transfer to university later. They don't understand that your only shot at getting significant scholarships and financial aid is when you enter as a 1st time freshman. I know someone with brilliant kids who made National Merit Scholar this year who is already setting their kids aims low by advising them to do this when there are so many good universities, both private and state, where their kids have a good shot at getting a full ride.

jswelker 3 days ago

> knock out core credits in community college

The correct way to do it is to utilize high school dual credit or dual enrollment offerings. Then you can shave off a year or two of college but still be eligible for freshman scholarships. Often cheaper than community college too.

Reply View 0 replies
jghn 3 days ago

> The problem is that a BS now is like a high school diploma when they grew up

> gen X / boomer

Those 2 generations aren't even remotely close in terms of shared experience of what high school diploma was like when they grew up.

Reply View 4 replies
  • viccis 3 days ago

    Well that specific example paragraph was about financial aid, not the value of a high school diploma, so I fail to see your point.

    Reply View 3 replies
    • jcater 3 days ago

      Well, I’ll elaborate as a Gen-Xer; what you describe about financial aid was the exact same scenario we faced.

      You are conflating the “exceptional” kid coming out if HS who is offered full rides (who clearly should take advantage of that and go straight into university with that full ride) with an average student who will have to pay for some or all of college. For the latter, community college for 2 years was and still is a good idea.

      Reply View 2 replies
      • viccis 3 days ago

        It really depends. In many states, for the latter, there are state programs that cover tuition if the student can meet some GPA and enrollment minimums. I knew someone in such a state still telling their kids to start in CC because that's what they knew from 30 years ago and they haven't bothered to research how things work now.

        Reply View 0 replies
      • jswelker 3 days ago

        I think the point is that you need to feel out the options available, which are fairly unique to each kid based on geography and grades and parents and extra curriculars, not just take a one size fits all approach of going to community college.

        Reply View 0 replies
nebula8804 3 days ago

>Another example of bad gen X / boomer advice is to knock out core credits in community college and transfer to university later. They don't understand that your only shot at getting significant scholarships and financial aid is when you enter as a 1st time freshman. I know someone with brilliant kids who made National Merit Scholar this year who is already setting their kids aims low by advising them to do this when there are so many good universities, both private and state, where their kids have a good shot at getting a full ride.

I'll have to push back on this. I'll give NJ as an example but other states have similar systems. In NJ If you are in the top 15% of your graduating school you are covered for full tuition provided for the first two years at community college. You are also given a guaranteed spot at whatever public college/program you want. (EDIT: I am not sure if this is still the case im trying to sift through the documentation but now I think it may also require minimum GPA in CC) Imagine getting that university degree and starting your professional career with potentially 0 debt.

Furthermore a variation of this program extends to families making less than 65k. If you meet that criteria. The community college degree is 0$. From there you are given a course schedule that if you follow will transfer 1:1 to a university and if you do well academically there you can be eligible for reduced or waived tuition at the public college of your choosing. This system helps people who did poorly in high school or just didnt make the cut aid wise get a second chance at tuition free college.

If you make more than 65k, you still get reduced tuition on some sliding scale. And again excellent grades translates to more savings.

At least for NJ, Community college really sets many people up for an excellent start in their career by not having any college debt.

Reply View 3 replies
  • viccis 3 days ago

    Many private colleges like Rice cover 100% of costs for all students with parents under a fairly high salary. Almost 40% of MIT students have financial aid that's equal or greater than their tuition. This is starting to get more and more common for elite colleges and universities.

    I got a full ride plus stipend to a pretty good but not great school, but one of the things I wish my parents pushed me on harder was applying to schools like MIT where I didn't bother applying because I didn't want to be saddled with debt. This was a couple decades back, and it's so much easier to get a full ride now if you can make it in (admittedly much harder now).

    My point isn't to write off community college. It's that a talented and accomplished high schooler should set their sights higher because the old idea that all these elite colleges are unaffordable is rapidly changing.

    Also, I am not sure if you know people taking CC courses recently, but they are often taught in a way that gives you what you paid for at $0. Prerecorded canned lectures, infuriating and curiosity crushing online worksheets, etc. I know multiple people who were excited to do free CC when it was made free for older (30+) students whose academic aims were immediately stamped out within one semester because there was no college instruction. Just endless online worksheets. These things exist in other higher ed paths too, but truly not to the extent that I've witnessed.

    Reply View 2 replies
    • nebula8804 3 days ago

      I understand where you are coming from in regards to elite university. Certainly if a student can get admitted into an ivy league they should at least inquire about eligible aid packages. I would assume someone with the intellect to get admitted there would put in the work to explore all options.

      Ivy league is a shrinking circle of spots and does not represent the majority of where exceptionally talented students go to as a result. Lets just take the example I cited with the top 15% of high school students in each high school in NJ would likely exceed the available spots at all Ivy Leagues. You mentioned public institutions in your original message. States have programs in place to ensure exceptional students are taken care of.

      >Also, I am not sure if you know people taking CC courses recently, but they are often taught in a way that gives you what you paid for at $0. Prerecorded canned lectures, infuriating and curiosity crushing online worksheets, etc. I know multiple people who were excited to do free CC when it was made free for older (30+) students whose academic aims were immediately stamped out within one semester because there was no college instruction. Just endless online worksheets. These things exist in other higher ed paths too, but truly not to the extent that I've witnessed.

      I was admitted to an Engineering school but due to severe health issues with family, I was forced to move closer and enroll in community college so I have gone through this experience in a unique way (Enrolled at University -> Transfered to CC -> Transferred back to University).

      This was ~15 years ago but during that time all the teachers at the CC had Masters degrees in their field and also had additional teaching credentials(some had PHDs).

      I found that instruction was very focused on ensuring students learned material vs my experience at my public Research based university where either TAs taught courses or professors focused on their research would reluctantly lecture as a requirement.

      I will concede that instruction in subjects like Math/Physics were not of the same caliber as university only because while CCs tended to give examinations consisting of hard versions of the practice problems assigned as homework, my Engineering university expected me to to deeply understand the material and would give very unique problems during the common exams that test the deeper understanding vs just technique.

      I am surprised to hear the anecdote that you expressed as that wouldn't pass muster with the university accreditation bodies as well as the admissions departments of the public universities that renew the "transfer agreements" with the CCs. In NJ there is a requirement of a minimum standard of instruction needed or else the receiving university has the right to reject course credit from the CC and rescind transfer agreements. The universities know who comes from the CCs and they are assessing academic performance of those students. For example Rutgers does this with some CC in their CS classes as the subject material is not 1:1(they are offered as general elective credit instead so still allows the student to not fall too behind).

      Let me ask you was this anecdote occuring during COVID? Maybe that accounts for the strange online instruction?

      Reply View 1 reply
      • viccis 3 days ago

        >Certainly if a student can get admitted into an ivy league they should at least inquire about eligible aid packages.

        Bear in mind when I say "elite college", I'm not talking Ivy Leagues, as those have covered tuition for the non-wealthy students for a while now. I'm talking elite liberal arts colleges (Amherst, Swarthmore), elite private universities (MIT, Rice), etc. Many state schools cover a lot but your mileage varies dramatically, and it's often tied to fairly intense GPA requirements. Georgia Tech has a student suicide problem because of this, for example.

        >This was ~15 years ago but during that time all the teachers at the CC had Masters degrees in their field and also had additional teaching credentials(some had PHDs).

        It's much worse now. A lot of the core classes (calculus, first semester bio and chem, etc.) don't have teachers at all. You're given all of your instruction via canned videos and your homework and evaluation through online tests. There's often a way to contact a teacher of some sort, but they will mostly be terse and just link you to a resource to work on it yourself or direct you to a forum where you and your classmates can talk about it.

        This isn't covid, this is from this year. A lot of this started with covid but has stuck around for budgetary reasons. YMMV but for a lot of places, this is how you cut costs to be able to easily offer free college. Some of the classes will still have teachers, but the big ones that people typically use CC for will be largely automated because that's what scales.

        Reply View 0 replies