Comment by compumike

Comment by compumike a day ago

There's a tradeoff and the assumption here (which I think is solid) is that there's more benefit from avoiding a supply chain attack by blindly (by default) using a dependency cooldown vs. avoiding a zero-day by blindly (by default) staying on the bleeding edge of new releases.

It's comparing the likelihood of an update introducing a new vulnerability to the likelihood of it fixing a vulnerability.

While the article frames this problem in terms of deliberate, intentional supply chain attacks, I'm sure the majority of bugs and vulnerabilities were never supply chain attacks: they were just ordinary bugs introduced unintentionally in the normal course of software development.

On the unintentional bug/vulnerability side, I think there's a similar argument to be made. Maybe even SemVer can help as a heuristic: a patch version increment is likely safer (less likely to introduce new bugs/regressions/vulnerabilities) than a minor version increment, so a patch version increment could have a shorter cooldown.

If I'm currently running version 2.3.4, and there's a new release 2.4.0, then (unless there's a feature or bugfix I need ASAP), I'm probably better off waiting N days, or until 2.4.1 comes out and fixes the new bugs introduced by 2.4.0!

woodruffw a day ago

Yep, that's definitely the assumption. However, I think it's also worth noting that zero-days, once disclosed, do typically receive advisories. Those advisories then (at least in Dependabot) bypass any cooldown controls, since the thinking is that a known vulnerability is more important to remediate than the open-ended risk of a compromised update.

> I'm sure the majority of bugs and vulnerabilities were never supply chain attacks: they were just ordinary bugs introduced unintentionally in the normal course of software development.

Yes, absolutely! The overwhelming majority of vulnerabilities stem from normal accidental bug introduction -- what makes these kinds of dependency compromises uniquely interesting is how immediately dangerous they are versus, say, a DoS somewhere in my network stack (where I'm not even sure it affects me).

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mik3y a day ago

Could a supply chain attacker simulate an advisory-remediating release somehow, i.e., abuse this feature to bypass cooldowns?

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- ted_dunning 19 hours ago
  
  Of course. They can simply wait to exploit their vulnerability. It it is well hidden, then it probably won't be noticed for a while and so you can wait until it is running on the majority of your target systems before exploiting it.
  From their point of view it is a trade-off between volume of vulnerable targets, management impatience and even the time value of money. Time to market probably wins a lot of arguments that it shouldn't, but that is good news for real people.
  
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Too 19 hours ago

You should also factor in that a zero-day often isn’t surfaced to be exploitable if you are using the onion model with other layers that need to be penetrated together. In contrast to a supply chain vulnerability that is designed to actively make outbound connections through any means possible.

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throwawayqqq11 18 hours ago

Thank you. I was scanning this thread for anyone pointing this out.
The cooldown security scheme appears like some inverse "security by obscurity". Nobody could see a backdoor, therefor we can assume security. This scheme stands and falls with the assumed timelines. Once this assumption tumbles, picking a cooldown period becomes guess work. (Or another compliance box ticked.)
On the other side, the assumption can very well be sound, maybe ~90% of future backdoors can be mitigated by it. But who can tell. This looks like the survivorship bias, because we are making decisions based on the cases we found.

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goalieca 13 hours ago

I’d estimate the vast majority of CVEs in third party source are not directly or indirectly exploitable. The CVSS scoring system assumes the worst case scenario the module is deployed in. We still have no good way to automate adjusting the score or even just figuring false positive.

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lambdaone 12 hours ago

The big problem is the Red Queen's Race nature of development in rapidly-evolving software ecosystems, where everyone has to keep pushing versions forward to deal with their dependencies' changes, as well as any actual software developments of their own. Combine that with the poor design decisions found in rapidly-evolving ecosystems, where everyone assumes anyting can be fixed in the next release, and you have a recipe for disaster.

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hinkley a day ago

Defaults are always assumptions. Changing them usually means that you have new information.

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