Comment by gr4vityWall a day ago
The Debian stable model of having a distro handle common dependencies with a full system upgrade every few years looks more and more sane as years pass.
It's a shame some ecosystems move waaay too fast, or don't have a good story for having distro-specific packages. For example, I don't think there are Node.js libraries packaged for Debian that allow you to install them from apt and use it in projects. I might be wrong.
> No one can think that js has progressed substantially in the last three years
Are we talking about the language, or the wider ecosystem?
If the latter, I think a lot of people would disagree. Bun is about three years old.
Other significant changes are Node.js being able to run TypeScript files without any optional flags, or being able to use require on ES Modules. I see positive changes in the ecosystem in recent years.
That is motion not action.
The point of javascript is to display websites in the browser.
Ask yourself, in the last three years has there been a substantial improvement in the way you access websites? Or have they gotten even slower, buggier and more annoying to deal with?
> The point of javascript is to display websites in the browser.
I don't follow. JavaScript is a dynamic general purpose programming language. It is certainly not limited to displaying websites, nor it's a requirement for that. The improvements I mentioned in the previous post aren't things you'd get the benefit of inside a web browser.
No but the devs can push slower, buggier, more annoying websites to prod, faster!
And after all, isn’t developer velocity (and investor benefits) really the only things that matter???
/sssss
> modern websites
Your are comparing the js ecosystem and bad project realizations/designs.
> Action vs motion
I think the main difference you mean is the motivation behind changes, is it a (re)action to achieve a meassurable goal, is this a fix for a critical CVE, or just some dev having fun and pumping up the numbers.
GP mentioned the recent feature of executing ts, which is a reasonable goal imo, with alot of beneficial effects down the line but in the present just another hustle to take care about. So is this a pointless motion or a worthy action? Both statements can be correct, depending on your goals.
> For example, I don't think there are Node.js libraries packaged for Debian that allow you to install them from apt and use it in projects
Web search shows some: https://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=node&searchon=na... (but also shows "for optimizing reasons some results might have been suppressed" so might not be all)
Although probably different from other distros, Arch for example seems to have none.
Locally, you can do:
apt-cache showpkg 'node-*' | grep ^Package:
Using these in commonjs code is trivial; they are automatically found by `require`. Unfortunately, system-installed packages are yet another casualty of the ESM transition ... there are ways to make it work but it's not automatic like it used to be.
Honestly, I don't see the value gain, given how many other problems the JS tooling has (even ignoring the ecosystem).
In particular, the fact that Typescript makes it very difficult to write a project that uses both browser-specific and node-specific functionality is particularly damning.
Never mistake motion for action.
An eco system moving too quickly, when it isn't being fundamentally changed, isn't a sign of a healthy ecosystem, but of a pathological one.
No one can think that js has progressed substantially in the last three years, yet trying to build any project three years old without updates is so hard a rewrite is a reasonable solution.