Comment by janeway

Comment by janeway 4 hours ago

24 replies

This topic is fascinating to me. The Toy Story film workflow is a perfect illustration of intentional compensation: artists pushed greens in the digital master because 35 mm film would darken and desaturate them. The aim was never neon greens on screen, it was colour calibration for a later step. Only later, when digital masters were reused without the film stage, did those compensating choices start to look like creative ones.

I run into this same failure mode often. We introduce purposeful scaffolding in the workflow that isn’t meant to stand alone, but exists solely to ensure the final output behaves as intended. Months later, someone is pitching how we should “lean into the bold saturated greens,” not realising the topic only exists because we specifically wanted neutral greens in the final output. The scaffold becomes the building.

In our work this kind of nuance isn’t optional, it is the project. If we lose track of which decisions are compensations and which are targets, outcomes drift badly and quietly, and everything built after is optimised for the wrong goal.

I’d genuinely value advice on preventing this. Is there a good name or framework for this pattern? Something concise that distinguishes a process artefact from product intent, and helps teams course-correct early without sounding like a semantics debate?

ilamont 2 hours ago

There’s an analog analogue: mixing and mastering audio recordings for the devices of the era.

I first heard about this when reading an article or book about Jimi Hendrix making choices based on what the output sounded like on AM radio. Contrast that with the contemporary recordings of The Beatles, in which George Martin was oriented toward what sounded best in the studio and home hi-fi (which was pretty amazing if you could afford decent German and Japanese components).

Even today, after digital transfers and remasters and high-end speakers and headphones, Hendrix’s late 60s studio recordings don’t hold a candle anything the Beatles did from Revolver on.

  • chiph 19 minutes ago

    And now we have the Loudness War where the songs are so highly compressed that there is no dynamic range. Because of this, I have to reduce the volume so it isn't painful to listen to. And this makes what should have been a live recording with interesting sound into background noise. Example:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gmex_4hreQ

    If you want a recent-ish album to listen to that has good sound, try Daft Punk's Random Access Memories (which won the Best Engineered Album Grammy award in 2014). Or anything engineered by Alan Parsons (he's in this list many times)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammy_Award_for_Best_Engineer...

    • a4isms 5 minutes ago

      I was obsessed with Tales of Mystery & Imagination, I Robot, and Pyramids in the 70s. I also loved Rush, ELP, Genesis, and ELO, but while Alan Parsons' albums wesn't better in an absolute musical sense, his production values were so obviously in a class of their own I still put Parsons in the same bucket as people like Trevor Horn and Quincy Jones, people who created masterpieces of record album engineering and production.

  • nunez 19 minutes ago

    I've noticed this with lots of jazz from the 50s and 60s. Sounds amazing in mono but "lacking" in stereo.

  • petralithic 10 minutes ago

    The same with movie sound mixing, where directors like Nolan are infamous for muffling dialogue in home setups because he wants the sound mixed for large, IMAX scale theater setups.

  • thaumasiotes an hour ago

    > There’s an analog analogue: mixing and mastering audio recordings for the devices of the era.

    In the modern day, this has one extremely noticeable effect: audio releases used to assume that you were going to play your music on a big, expensive stereo system, and they tried to create the illusion of the different members of the band standing in different places.

    But today you listen to music on headphones, and it's very weird to have, for example, the bassline playing in one ear while the rest of the music plays in your other ear.

_bent 3 hours ago

I know you're looking for something more universal, but in modern video workflows you'd apply a chain of color transformations on top the final composited image to compensate the display you're working with.

So I guess try separating your compensations from the original work and create a workflow that automatically applies them

Gravityloss 2 hours ago

Theory: Everything is built on barely functioning ruins with each successive generation or layer mostly unaware of the proper ways to use anything produced previously. Ten steps forward and nine steps back. All progress has always been like this.

  • pbh101 29 minutes ago

    I’ve come to similar conclusions, and further realized that if you feel there’s a moment to catch your breath and finally have everything tidy and organized, possibly early sign of stagnation or decline in an area. Growth/progress is almost always urgent and overwhelming in the moment.

vodou 3 hours ago

Do you have some concrete or specific examples of intentional compensation or purposeful scaffolding in mind (outside the topic of the article)?

  • quuxplusone an hour ago

    Not scaffolding in the same way, but, two examples of "fetishizing accidental properties of physical artworks that the original artists might have considered undesirable degradations" are

    - the fashion for unpainted marble statues and architecture

    - the aesthetic of running film slightly too fast in the projector (or slightly too slow in the camera) for an old-timey effect

    • chrisweekly an hour ago

      Great examples. My mind jumps straight to audio:

      - the pops and hiss of analog vinyl records, deliberately added by digital hip-hop artists

      - electric guitar distortion pedals designed to mimic the sound of overheated tube amps or speaker cones torn from being blown out

    • tsunamifury an hour ago

      Motion blur. 24fps. Grain. Practically everything we call cinematic

davidalayachew 2 hours ago

Isn't the entire point of "reinventing the wheel" to address this exact problem?

This is one of the tradeoffs of maintaining backwards compatibility and stewardship -- you are required to keep track of each "cause" of that backwards compatibility. And since the number of "causes" can quickly become enumerable, that's usually what prompts people to reinvent the wheel.

And when I say reinvent the wheel, I am NOT describing what is effectively a software port. I am talking about going back to ground zero, and building the framework from the ground up, considering ONLY the needs of the task at hand. It's the most effective way to prune these needless requirements.

  • chrisweekly an hour ago

    enumerable -> innumerable

    (opposite meaning)

    • thaumasiotes an hour ago

      > (opposite meaning)

      Funnily enough, e- means "out" (more fundamentally "from") and in- means "in(to)", so that's not an unexpected way to form opposite words.

      But in this case, innumerable begins with a different in- meaning "not". (Compare inhabit or immiserate, though.)

      • chrisweekly 6 minutes ago

        Yeah, English has so many quirks. As a software dev, the "enum" type cane to mind, making this one easier to spot. (shrug)

gwbas1c an hour ago

(Cough) Abstraction and separation of concerns.

In Toy Story's case, the digital master should have had "correct" colors, and the tweaking done in the transfer to film step. It's the responsibility of the transfer process to make sure that the colors are right.

Now, counter arguments could be that the animators needed to work with awareness of how film changes things; or that animators (in the hand-painted era) always had to adjust colors slightly.

---

I think the real issue is that Disney should know enough to tweak the colors of the digital releases to match what the artists intended.

snarfy 2 hours ago

It seems pretty common in software - engineers not following the spec. Another thing that happens is the pivot. You realize the scaffolding is what everyone wants and sell that instead. The scaffold becomes the building and also product.

pbronez 3 hours ago

That’s a great observation. I’m hitting the same thing… yesterday’s hacks are today’s gospel.

My solution is decision documents. I write down the business problem, background on how we got here, my recommended solution, alternative solutions with discussion about their relative strengths and weaknesses, and finally and executive summary that states the whole affirmative recommendation in half a page.

Then I send that doc to the business owners to review and critique. I meet with them and chase down ground truth. Yes it works like this NOW but what SHOULD it be?

We iterate until everyone is excited about the revision, then we implement.

  • randallsquared 2 hours ago

    There are two observations I've seen in practice with decision documents: the first is that people want to consume the bare minimum before getting started, so such docs have to be very carefully written to surface the most important decision(s) early, or otherwise call them out for quick access. This often gets lost as word count grows and becomes a metric.

    The second is that excitement typically falls with each iteration, even while everyone agrees that each is better than the previous. Excitement follows more strongly from newness than rightness.

  • thaumasiotes an hour ago

    Eventually you'll run into a decision that was made for one set of reasons but succeeded for completely different reasons. A decision document can't help there; it can only tell you why the decision was made.

    That is the nature of evolutionary processes and it's the reason people (and animals; you can find plenty of work on e.g. "superstition in chickens") are reluctant to change working systems.

layer8 2 hours ago

Chesterton’s Fence is a related notion.

RedNifre 3 hours ago

"Cargo cult"? As in, "Looks like the genius artists at Pixar made everything extra green, so let's continue doing this, since it's surely genius."