Comment by contrarian1234

Comment by contrarian1234 2 days ago

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> Labs used to hire researchers and give them a lot of free reign.

I can't think of it ever really paying off. Bell Labs is the best example. Amazing research that was unrelated to the core business off the parent company. Microsoft Research is another great one. Lots of interesting research that .. got MS some nerd points? But has materialized into very very few actual products and revenue streams. Moving AI research doesn't help Meta build any motes or revenue streams. It just progresses our collective knowledge.

On the "human progress" scale it's fantastic to put lots of smart people in a room and let them do their thing. But from a business perspective it seems to almost never pay off. Waiting on the irrational charity of businesses executive is probably not the best way to structure thing.

I'd tell them to go become academics.. but all the academics I know are just busy herding their students and attending meetings

Gigachad 2 days ago

Perhaps these companies just end up with so much money that they can't possibly find ways to spend all of it rationally for purely product driven work and just end up funding projects with no clear business case.

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  • trenchpilgrim 2 days ago

    Or they hire researchers specifically so a competitor or upstart can't hire them and put them to work on something that disrupts their cash cow.

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zipy124 14 hours ago

W.l gore and similar companies are excellent examples, of goretex fame and other chemicals. Super interesting management structure called open allocation which is exactly this, employees get to choose what they work on. Valve is similar but slightly less formal.

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iisan7 2 days ago

It paid off for PARC, iirc the laser printer justified lots of other things that Xerox didn't profit from but turned out to be incredibly important.

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gopher_space 2 days ago

The problem here is management expecting researchers to dump out actionable insights like a chicken laying eggs. Researchers exist so that you can rifle through their notes and steal ideas.

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whiplash451 2 days ago

Indeed. And it feels like there is this untold in-between where if you belong to an unknown applied AI team, you don’t have to deal with academia’s yak shaving, you don’t have to deal with Meta’s politics and you end up single handedly inventing TRMs.

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heavyset_go 2 days ago

How many patents did that research result in that paid off in terms of use, licensing and royalties?

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godelski 2 days ago

  > I can't think of it ever really paying off
Sure worked for Bell Labs

Also it is what big tech was doing until LLMs hit the scene

So I'm not sure what you mean by it never paying off. We were doing it right up till one of those things seemed to pay off and then hyper focused on it. I actually think this is a terrible thing we frequently do in tech. We find promise in a piece of tech, hyper focus on it. Specifically, hyper focus on how to monetizing it which ends up stunting the technology because it hasn't had time to mature and we're trying to monetize the alpha product instead of trying to get that thing to beta.

  > But from a business perspective it seems to almost never pay off.
So this is actually what I'm trying to argue. It actually does pay off. It has paid off. Seriously, look again at Silicon Valley and how we got to where we are today. And look at how things changed in the last decade...

Why is it that we like off the wall thinkers? That programmers used to be known as a bunch of nerds and weirdos. How many companies were started out of garages (Apple)? How many started as open source projects (Android)? Why did Google start giving work lifestyle perks and 20% time?

So I don't know what you're talking about. It has frequently paid off. Does it always pay off? Of course not! It frequently fails! But that is pretty true for everything. Maybe the company stocks are doing great[0], but let's be honest, the products are not. Look at the last 20 years and compare it to the 20 years before that. The last 20 years has been much slower. Now maybe it is a coincidence, but the biggest innovation in the last 20 years has been in AI and from 2012 to 2021 there were a lot of nice free reign AI research jobs at these big tech companies where researchers got paid well, had a lot of autonomy in research, and had a lot of resources at their disposal. It really might be a coincidence, but a number of times things like this have happened in history and they tend to be fairly productive. So idk, you be the judge. Hard to conclude that this is definitely what creates success, but I find it hard to rule this out.

  > I'd tell them to go become academics.. but all the academics I know are just busy herding their students and attending meetings
Same problem, different step of the ladder

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45555175

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