Comment by vasco

Comment by vasco 2 days ago

8 replies

> So what is your argument, that it doesn't apply everywhere therefore it applies nowhere?

I never said that. Someone said the law collapses, someone asked for a link, I gave an example to prove it does break down in some cases at least, but many cases once you think more about it. I never said all cases.

If it works sometimes and not others, it's not a law. It's just an observation of something that can happen or not.

godelski 2 days ago

  > I never said all cases.
You're right. My bad. I inferred that through the context of the conversation.

  > If it works sometimes and not others, it's not a law.
I think you are misreading and that is likely what lead to the aforementioned misunderstanding. You're right that it isn't a scientific law, but the term "law" gets thrown around a lot in a more colloquial manner. Unfortunately words are overloaded and have multiple meanings. We do the same thing to "hypothesis", "paradox", and lots of other things. I hope this clarifies the context. (even many of the physics laws aren't as strong as you might think)

But there are many "laws" used in the same form. They're eponymous laws[0], not scientific ones. Read "adage". You'll also find that word used in the opening sentence on the Wiki article I linked as well as most (if not all) of them in [0]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_eponymous_laws

exe34 2 days ago

it doesn't break down - see comments about rules above. it was the perfect example to prove yourself wrong.

  • vasco 2 days ago

    I disagree with all of those examples, they are misunderstanding what it means for the metric to break down in the context of the law, but alas. "If you run a different race" lol.

    • godelski 2 days ago

        > in the context of the law
      
      That's the key part. The metric has context, right?

      And that's where Goodhart's "Law" comes in. A metric has no meaning without context. This is why metrics need to be interpreted. They need to be evaluated in context. Sometimes this context is explicit but other times it is implicit. Often people will hack the metric as the implicit rule is not explicit and well that's usually a quick way to make those rules explicit.

      Here's another way to think about it: no rule can be so perfectly written that it has no exceptions.

    • exe34 2 days ago

      could you explain what you think the difference is?

      a metric is chosen, people start to game the system by doing things that make the metric improve but the original intent is lost. increasingly specific rules/laws have to be made up to make the metric appear to work, but it becomes a lost cause as more and more creative ways are found to work around the rules.

      • vasco 2 days ago

        Exactly, that's the definition. It doesn't apply to timing a 100m race. There's many such situations that are simple enough and with perfect information available where this doesn’t break down and a metric is just a metric and it works great.

        Which is not to the detriment of the observation being true in other contexts, all I did was provide a counter example. But the example requires the metric AND the context.