Comment by mikepurvis 20 hours ago
From my experience in the robotics space, a lot of containers start life as "this used to be a bare metal thing and then we moved it into a container", and with a lot of unstructured RPC going on between processes, there's little benefit in breaking up the processes into separate containers.
Supervisor, runit, systemd, even a tmux session are all popular options for how to run a bunch of stuff in a monolithic "app" container.
I've always advocated against containers as a means of deploying software to robots simply because to my mind it doesn't make sense— robots are full of bare-metal concerns, whether it's udev rules, device drivers, network config, special kernel or bootloader setup, never mind managing the container runtime itself including startup, updating, credentials, and all the rest of it. It's always felt to me like by the time you put in place mechanisms to handle all that crap outside the container, you might as well just be building a custom bare metal image and shipping that— have A/B partitions so you copy an update from the network to the other partition, use grub chainloading, wipe hands on pants.
The concern regarding license-adherence is orthogonal to all that but certainly valid. I think with the ROS ecosystem in particular there is a lot of "lol everything is BSD/Apache2 so we don't even have to think about it", without understanding that these licenses still have an attribution requirement.
For workstations with GPUs and various kernel modules, rpm-ostree + GRUB + Native Containers for the rootfs and /usr and flatpaks etc on a different partition works well enough.
ostree+grub could be much better at handling failover like switches and rovers that then need disk space for at least two separate A/B flash slots and badblocks and a separate /root quota. ("support configuring host to retain more than two deployments" https://github.com/coreos/rpm-ostree/issues/577#issuecomment... )
Theoretically there's a disk space advantage to container layers.
Native Containers are bare-metal host images as OCI Images which can be stored in OCI Container Registries (or Artifact registries because packages too). GitHub, GitLab, Gitea, GCP, and AWS all host OCI Container/Artifact Registries.
From https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44401634 re bootc-image-builder and Native Containers and ublue-os/image-template, ublue-os/akmods, ublue-os/toolboxes w/ "quadlets and systemd" (and tini is already built-in to Docker and Podman) though ublue/bazzite has too many patches for a robot:
> ostree native containers are bootable host images that can also be built and signed with a SLSA provenance attestation; https://coreos.github.io/rpm-ostree/container/
SBOM tools can scan hosts, VMs, and containers to identify software versions and licenses for citation and attribution. (CC-BY-SA requires Attribution if the derivative work is distributed. AGPL applies to hosted but not necessarily distributed derivative works. There's choosealicense.com , which has a table of open source license requirements in an Appendix: https://choosealicense.com/appendix/ )
BibTeX doesn't support schema.org/SoftwareApplication or subproperties of schema:identifier for e.g. the DOI URN of the primary schema.org/ScholarlyArticle and it's :funder(s).
...
ROS on devices, ROS in development and simulation environments;
Conda-forge and RoboStack host ROS Robot Operating System as conda packages.
RoboStack/ros-noetic is ROS as conda packages: https://github.com/RoboStack/ros-noetic
gz-sim is the new version of gazebosim, a simulator for ROS development: https://github.com/conda-forge/gz-sim-feedstock
From https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44372666 :
> mujoco_menagerie has Mujoco MJCF XML models of various robots.
Mujoco ROS-compatibility: https://github.com/google-deepmind/mujoco/discussions/990
Moveit2: https://github.com/moveit/moveit2 :
> Combine Gazebo, ROS Control, and MoveIt for a powerful robotics development platform.
RoboStack has moveit2 as conda packages with clearly-indicated patches for Lin/Mac/Win: ros-noetic-moveit-ros-visualization.patch: https://github.com/RoboStack/ros-noetic/blob/main/patch/ros-...
...
Devcontainer.json has been helpful for switching between projects lately.
devcontainer.json can reference a local container/image:name or a path to a ../Dockerfile. I personally prefer to build a named image with a Makefile, though vscode Remote Containers (devcontainers extension) can build from a Dockerfile and, if the devcontainer build succeeds, start code-server in the devcontainer and restart vscode as a client of the code-server running in the container so that all of the tools for developing the software can be reproducibly installed in a container isolated from the host system.
It looks like it's bootc or bootc-image-builder for building native container images?
bootc-image-builder: https://github.com/osbuild/bootc-image-builder
> Supervisor, runit, systemd, even a tmux session are all popular options for how to run a bunch of stuff in a monolithic "app" container.
Did docker+systemd get fixed at some point? I would be surprised to hear that it was popular given the hoops you had to jump through last time I looked at it
It's only really fixed in podman, with the special `--systemd=always` flag. Docker afaik still requires manually disabling certain services that will conflict with the host and then running the whole thing as privileged— basically, a mess.
Not my favoured approach, but for early stage systems where proper off-board observability/alerting is not yet in place, tmux can function as a kind of ssh-accessible dashboard displaying the stdout of key running processes, and also allowing some measure of inline recovery— like if a process has crashed, you can up-arrow and relaunch it in the same environment it crashed out of.
Obviously not an approach that scales, but I think it can also work decently well as a dev environment, where you want to run "stock" for most of the components in the system, and just be syncing in an updated workspace and restarting the one bit being actively developed on. Being able to do this without having to reason about a whole tree of interlinked startup units or whatever does lower the barrier to entry somewhat.
One advantage is that if the process has some sort of console on it's stdin, you can do admin work easily. With init systems you now have to configure named pipes, worry about them blocking, have output in separate place, etc.
My experience in the robotics space is that containers are a way to not know how to put a system together properly. It's the quick equivalent of "I install it on my Ubuntu, then I clone my whole system into a .iso and I call that a distribution". Most of the time distributed without any consideration for the open source licences being part of it.