Comment by theshrike79 2 days ago
I'm still traumatised by Java from my earlier career. So many weird patterns, FactoryFactories and Spring Framework and ORMs that work 90% of the time and the 10% is pure pain.
I have no desire to go back to Java no matter how much the language has evolved.
For me C# has filled the void of Java in enterprise/gaming environments.
While C# is great, but the problem with programming languages, is you're net only picking a language, but a kind of company who uses it, and a kind of person who writes it.
Which means if you write C#, you'll encounter a ton of devs who come from an enterprise, banking or govt background, who think doing a 4 layer enterprise architecture with DTOs and 5 line classes is the only way you can write a CRUD app, and the worst of all you'll se a ton of people who learned C# in college a decade ago and refuse to learn anything else.
EF is great, but most people use it because they don't have to learn SQL and databases.
Blazor is great, but most people use it because they don't want to learn Frontend dev, and JS frameworks.
I think you have a point with the types of resources, but in my experience, its also not hard to separate the wheat from the chaff with pretty simple heuristics (though that is likely very different now with AI and cheating!).
"Modern C#" (if we can differentiate that) has a lot of nice amenities for modeling like immutable `record` types and named tuples. I think where EF really shines is that it allows you to model the domain with persistence easily and then use DTOs purely as projections (which is how I use DTOs) into views (e.g. REST API endpoints).
I can't say for the broader ecosystem, but at least in my own use cases, EFC is primarily used for write scenarios and some basic read scenarios. But in almost all of my projects, I end up using CQRS with Dapper on the read side for more complex queries. So I don't think that it's people avoiding SQL; rather it's teams focused on productivity first.
WRT to Blazor, I would not recommend it in place of JS except for internal tooling (tried it at one startup and switched to Vue + Vite). But to be fair, modern FE development in JS is an absolute cluster of complexity.
C# is also the lingua Franca of mobile games because of Unity.
And when the front end is C# so is the back end.
Imo, Unity C# is almost 'not real' C#, as in it uses a completely different programming model, with different object lifetimes, programming and object models. I know the execution bits are the same, but programming for Unity feels very different in every way than writing ASP.NET code (and more different than moving from ASP.NET to Spring Boot)
I love C#, but have actually found LLMs to be quite bad a producing idiomatic code because the language is changing so fast and often they don't even know about the latest language(/blazor) features. I constantly have to undo my initial prompt and rewrite it to tell them that we don't use Startup.cs any more, only Program.cs, and Program.cs is a flat file and not a class.
I think that can be solved with an `instructions.md` and explicitly stating the language version/features to use.
I'm still sad that Silverlight[0] (and Moonlight) died because people hated MS so viscerally back then.
It was actually really good for the time and lightyears ahead of whatever Flash was doing.
But people rather used all kinds of hacks to get Flash working on Linux and OSX rather than use Moonlight.
I was so glad it died. It was a weird proprietary replacement for Flash, which itself was weird and proprietary, except the new one was owned by a huge company that publicly stated they wanted to crush Linux and friends.
A big chunk of their strategy at the time was around how to completely own the web. I celebrated every time their attempts failed.
This, Go came and I just have no desire to go back to those languages spawned from hell that force fed me horrible patterns and called it best practices.
Go is amazing in that it lets you tell the machine what you want, simply and you can easily verify that that is indeed what the machine should be doing.
Regarding defer, idk about other, but I never assumed it was a gotcha, you read the go docs once and all is just clear and you don’t make most mistakes that others claim are footguns.
I spent untold hours and years mastering inversion of control and late-binding and all those design patterns that were SOOOOO important for interviews only to never really utilize all that stuff because once the apps were built, they rarely, if ever, got reconfigured to do something besides the exact thing they were built for. We might as well have not bothered with any of it and just wrote modular, testable non-OOP code and called it a day. After just about 25 years, I look back at all the time I spent using Spring Framework, Struts, and older products and just kind of shake my head. It was all someone else's money making scheme.
I'm also reminded about the time that Tomcat stopped being an application you deploy to and just being an embedded library in the runtime! It was like the collective light went on that Web containers were just a sham. That didn't prevent employers from forcing me to keep using Websphere/WAS because "they paid for that and by god they're going to use it!" Meanwhile it was totally obsolete as docker containers just swept them all by the wayside.
I wonder what "Webshere admins" are doing these days? That was once a lucrative role to be able to manage those Jython configs, lol.
Plus it seems hopeful to think you'll be only working with "New java" paradigm when most enterprise software is stuck on older versions. Just like python, in theory you can make great new green field project but 80% of the work in the industry is on older or legacy components.
I guess it's reasonable to be hopeful as a Java developer nowadays.
Modern Java communities are slowly adopting the common FP practice "making illegal states unrepresentable" and call it "data oriented programming". Which is nice for those of us who actively use ADT. I no longer need to repeatedly explain "what is Option<?>?" or "why ADT?" whenever I use them; I could just point them to those new resources.
Hopefully, this shift will steer the Java community toward a saner direction than the current cargo cult which believed mutable C-struct (under guise of "anemic domain model") + Garbage Collector was OOP.
C# is a highly underrated language that has evolved very quickly over the last decade into a nice mix of OOP and functional.
It's fast enough, easy enough (being very similar now to TypeScript), versatile enough, well-documented (so LLMs do a great job), broad and well-maintained first party libraries, and the team has over time really focused on improving terseness of the language (pattern matching and switch expressions are really one thing I miss a lot when switching between C# and TS).
EF Core is also easily one of the best ORMs: super mature, stable, well-documented, performant, easy to use, and expressive. Having been in the Node ecosystem for the past year, there's really no comparison for building fast with less papercuts (Prisma, Drizzle, etc. all abound with papercuts).
It's too bad that it seems that many folks I've chatted with have a bad taste from .NET Framework (legacy, Windows only) and may have previously worked in C# when it was Windows only and never gave it another look.