Comment by rkomorn

Comment by rkomorn 2 days ago

18 replies

Most of what I remember of my high school education in France was: here are the facts, and here is the reasoning that got us there.

The exams were typically essay-ish (even in science classes) where you either had to basically reiterate the reasoning for a fact you already knew, or use similar reasoning to establish/discover a new fact (presumably unknown to you because not taught in class).

Unfortunately, it didn't work for me and I still have about the same critical thinking skills as a bottle of Beaujolais Nouveau.

jve 2 days ago

I don't know if I have critical thinking or not. But I often question - WHY is this better? IS there any better way? WHY it must be done such a way or WHY such rule exists?

For example in electricity you need at least that amount of cross section if doing X amount of amps over Y length. I want to dig down and understand why? Ohh, the smaller the cross section, the more it heats! Armed with this info I get many more "Ohhs": Ohh, that's why you must ensure the connections are not loose. Oohhh, that's why an old extension cord where you don't feel your plug solidly clicks in place is a fire hazard. Ohh, that's why I must ensure the connection is solid when joining cables and doesn't lessen cross section. Ohh, that's why it's a very bad idea to join bigger cables with a smaller one. Ohh, that's why it is a bad idea to solve "my fuse is blowing out" by inserting a bigger fuse but instead I must check whether the cabling can support higher amperage (or check whether device has to draw that much).

And yeah, this "intuition" is kind of a discovery phase and I can check whether my intuition/discovery is correct.

Basically getting down to primitives lets me understand things more intuitively without trying to remember various rules or formulas. But I noticed my brain is heavily wired in not remembering lots of things, but thinking logically.

  • fx1994 2 days ago

    We don't have enough time to go over things like this over and over again. Somebody already analyzed/tried all this and wrote in a book and they teach you in school from that book how it works and why. Yeah if you want to know more or understand better you can always dig it out yourself. At least today you can learn tons of stuff.

    • wongarsu 2 days ago

      We don't have enough time to derive everything from first principles, but we do have the time to go over how something was derived, or how something works.

      A common issue when trying this is trying to teach all layers at the same level of detail. But this really isn't necessary. You need to know the equation for Ohms law, but you can give very handwavy explanations for the underlying causes. For example: why do thicker wires have less resistance? Electricity is the movement of electrons, more cross section means more electrons can move, like having more lanes on a highway. Why does copper have less resistance than aluminum? Copper has an electron that isn't bound as tightly to the atom. How does electricity know which path has the least resistance? It doesn't, it starts flowing down all paths equally at a significant fraction of the speed of light, then quickly settles in a steady state described by Ohm's law. Reserve the equations and numbers for the layers that matter, but having a rough understanding of what's happening on the layer below makes it easier to understand the layer you care about, and makes it easier to know when that understanding will break down (because all of science and engineering are approximations with limited applicability)

      • jve 2 days ago

        Oh you put this nicely.

        > How does electricity know which path has the least resistance? It doesn't, it starts flowing down all paths equally at a significant fraction of the speed of light, then quickly settles in a steady state described by Ohm's law.

        > because all of science and engineering are approximations with limited applicability

        Something I heard but haven't dig into, because my use case (DIY, home) doesn't care. In some other applications approximation at this level may not work and more detailed understanding may be needed :)

        And yeah, some theory and telling of things others discovered for sure needs to be done. That is just the entry point for digging. And understanding how something was derived is just a tool for me to more easily remember/use the knowledge.

    • darkerside 2 days ago

      Are you being serious or is this satire? What an odd perspective to share on Hacker News. We're a bunch of nerds that take pleasure in understanding how things work when you take them apart, whether that's a physics concept or a washing machine. Or am I projecting an ethos?

      • ThrowawayR2 2 days ago

        Are we hackers? I see posters griping about the pointlessness of learning CS theory and other topics during their college on HN all the time.

      • jakeydus 2 days ago

        No you’re not projecting they’re being weird.

Saline9515 2 days ago

On the contrary, the French "dissertation" exercise requires to articulate reasoning and facts, and come up with a plan for the explanation. It is the same kind of thinking that you are required to produce when writing a scientifically paper.

It is however not taught very well by some teachers, who skirt on explaining how to properly do it, which might be your case.

  • rkomorn 2 days ago

    I'm pretty sure my teachers in the 90s were teaching properly.

    I also don't see what's "on the contrary" there.

    • Saline9515 2 days ago

      On the contrary, your OP claims that dissertations require a rehash of the references cited in class. A real dissertation exercises logic and requires mobilizing facts and verbal precision to ground arguments. It is also highly teacher-dependent: if the correction is lax or not properly explained, you won’t understand what the exercise really is or how you are supposed to think in order to succeed.

darkwater 2 days ago

> Unfortunately, it didn't work for me and I still have about the same critical thinking skills as a bottle of Beaujolais Nouveau.

Why do you say so? Even just stating this probably means you are one or a few steps further...

  • rkomorn 2 days ago

    Perhaps you overestimate me (or underestimate Beaujolais Nouveau (though how one could underestimate Beaujolais Nouveau is a mystery to me, but I digress)).

    But also, it takes a lot of actual learning of facts and understanding reasoning to properly leverage that schooling and I've had to accept that I am somewhat deficient at both. :)

    • klondike_klive 2 days ago

      One thing I've come to understand about myself since my ADHD diagnosis is how hard thinking actually is for me. Especially thinking "to order", like problem solving or planning ahead. I'm great at makeshift solutions that will hold together until something better comes along. But deep and sustained thought for any length of time increases the chance that I'll become aware that I'm thinking and then get stuck in a fruitless meta cognition spiral.

      An analogy occurred to me the other day that it's like diving into a burning building to rescue possessions. If I really go for it I could get lucky and retrieve a passport or pet, but I'm just as likely to come back with an egg whisk!

      • rkomorn 2 days ago

        Your description feels relatable.

        I think all this stuff is so complex and multi-faceted that we often get only a small part of the picture at a time.

        I likely have some attention/focus issues, but I also know they vary greatly (from "can't focus at all" to "I can definitely grok this") based on how actually interested I am in a topic (and I often misjudge that actual level of interest).

        I also know my very negative internal discourse, and my fixed mindset, are both heavily influenced by things that occurred decades ago, and keeping myself positively engaged in something by trying to at least fake a growth mindset is incredibly difficult.

        Meanwhile, I'm perfectly willing to throw unreasonable brute force effort at things (ie I've done many 60+ hour weeks working in tech and bunches of 12 hour days in restaurant kitchens), but that's probably been simultaneously both my biggest strength and worst enemy.

        At the same time, I don't think you should ignore the value of an egg whisk. You can use it to make anything from mayonnaise to whipped cream, not to mention beaten egg whites that have a multitude of applications. Meanwhile, the passport is easy enough to replace, and your pet (forgive me if I'm making the wrong assumption here) doesn't know how to use the whisk properly.

biztos 2 days ago

I’ve heard many bad things said of the Beaujolais Nouveau, and of my sense of taste for liking it, but this is the first time I’ve seen its critical-thinking skills questioned.

In its/your/our defense, I think it’s a perfectly smart wine, and young at heart!

  • rkomorn 2 days ago

    I appreciate the thought! ... even if it makes me question your judgement a bit.

jech 2 days ago

> the same critical thinking skills as a bottle of Beaujolais Nouveau

I'm loving this expression. May I please adopt it?

  • rkomorn 2 days ago

    You absolutely may, but I think you should personalize it with a wine reference that is geographically and qualitatively appropriate.

    And you may only use it to describe yourself, not others.