Comment by simpaticoder

Comment by simpaticoder a day ago

8 replies

Glad I'm not the only one just getting around to reading Neuromancer in 2025! The shocking thing about the story is how very few screens there are in the world, and how ungrounded "cyberspace" is in physics. Cyberspace's mechanics are vague, and in fact are inconsistent with the other extent communication technologies. e.g. Case never seems to worry about getting a signal for his deck, and yet does worry about getting signals for, e.g. fax machines on space ships. It feels like the fabric of cyberspace must be ESP or telepathy (which is consistent with its description as a "shared hallucination". Gibson seems to be wrestling with new technology in a similar way to the authors of "Wierd Science" - where basically computers are magic. (And IIRC Gibson famously doesn't use computers IRL).

The other gobsmacking thing about Neuromancer is space. Near-Earth space feels fully-colonized and space travel is only slightly more exotic than air travel. In a similar vein, post-human biological modification is rather mundane, at least in our hero's circles. This is another area where real-world advances don't measure up. In these two areas I find the book to be quite a lot more optimistic than reality has turned out.

If you hold up Neuromancer to modern society to judge us on our engineering accomplishments, you'll find us coming up very short in every area other than pure software engineering. The irony is that in that particular area Neuromancer veers from science fiction squarely into fantasy. And yeah, it's still great.

atombender a day ago

> And IIRC Gibson famously doesn't use computers IRL

No, he famously didn't own a computer when he wrote Neuromancer.

“I wrote Neuromancer on a manual portable typewriter and about half of Count Zero on the same machine. Then it broke, in a way that was more or less irreparable. Bruce Sterling called me shortly thereafter and said, ‘This changes everything!’ I said, ‘What?’ He said, ‘My Dad gave me his Apple II. You have to get one of these things!’ I said, ‘Why?’ He said, ‘Automation—it automates the process of writing!’ I’ve never gone back.” [1]

[1] https://www.theparisreview.org/interviews/6089/the-art-of-fi...

Rover222 a day ago

> It feels like the fabric of cyberspace must be ESP or telepathy

Maybe they're using the Ansible

B1FF_PSUVM a day ago

> Cyberspace's mechanics are vague [...] basically computers are magic.

It was already so at the time - anyone working with real computers knew how thin the veil over the magic tech was. Gibson was doing a good Chandler iteration - "When in doubt, have a man come through shining a laser.”

It must be said that SF always had a lot of magic (ahem, "sufficiently advanced technology") going on, and in the 1980s it translated to shiny zigzagging light paths such as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tron and implausible "lightsabers"

NetRunnerSu a day ago

You've perfectly articulated the central challenge that inspired my own work. The 'magical', ungrounded reality of early cyberpunk cyberspace is precisely the gap we're trying to bridge with formalized realism.

Instead of telepathic magic, what if the 'deck' ran on a verifiable, computationally intensive process rooted in a concrete theory of consciousness? We've been archiving our attempt to build just that—the theory, the code, and the narrative simulation. Perhaps a less optimistic, but more grounded future.

You can find the project here: https://github.com/dmf-archive

  • messe a day ago

    > You can find the project here: https://github.com/dmf-archive

    It sounds like you're trying to build the Cyberpunk equivalent of the shared semi-hard-SF Orion's Arm universe / world building project?

    - https://www.orionsarm.com/

    - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orion's_Arm

    • NetRunnerSu a day ago

      I prefer to call it, the sociology unit test.

      https://github.com/dmf-archive/IPWT

      https://doi.org/10.5281/zenodo.15676304

      https://github.com/dmf-archive/Tiny-ONN

      Let's make sci-fi into reality.

      • simpaticoder an hour ago

        Okay, I'll bite: what's so "terrifying" about developing a physical theory of consciousness?

        I have to admit having similar reactions to other "profound" questions - for example, does free will exist? To that one I say: As long as weather exists, even deterministic intelligences will be as unpredictable as one with free will. A machine with chaotic inputs will itself be sufficiently chaotic.

        Regarding consciousness, I think there is a category error born of (understandable) hubris. It is the conceit that you can carve out "consciousness" from the holistic physical phenomena of "humans" or, more generally, "life". It's kind of a package deal. Humans might (and probably will) make concious machines, but it will forever be an unanswerable philosophical question about whether they "really" are, just as it is with other humans. In the end it's best to "zoom out" and consider the subject in the context of the Fermi paradox - will such an invention help or harm humanity? (Does replacement imply harm? If we are replaced by our children, is that harm?)

        In any event, it's all above my pay-grade, so to speak. For what it's worth, I tend to think that a) life is common in the universe, b) intelligent life very uncommon, and c) humanity got some really serious help from the cosmos/won a few lotteries. We got a moon the exact same angular size as the sun, allowing us to e.g. verify general relativity with ease. We got an atmosphere that let us see the stars clearly, and still breathe. We got a 3rd gen star and planet with a nice mix of light and heavy elements, and plenty of energy runway in the sun. We got abiogenesis (~common) and eukaryotic cells (~uncommon). We got some timely 99% extinctions (but not 100%) to clear the path for us, and which coincidentally left vast energy resources underground for us to bootstrap out of the middle ages. We got a celestial moat, almost impossible to cross (special relativity speed limits; thermodynamic limits) for all but the most advanced (and therefore presumably wisest) civilizations, keeping us safe from colonization. The latter is a bit of a golden cage, and I consider getting out of that cage the highest civilizational goal possible.

        Within this picture, AI can fit in in many places, with positive and negative effects. I have to admit that I do not like the trend I see in humanity to become unmoored from the physical world, to venture out unarmed with critical thinking skills, like lambs to the slaughter in the barbaric free-for-all that is the modern info-sphere, who's ulimtate goals are the same as they ever were: money and power. The chance of a stupid self-own like nuclear war, autonomous AI weapons, bio-warfare, or catastrophic global climate change are still all too likely, and getting more likely as intelligent, balanced minds are selected against. We can't do anything about a caldera explosion or a nearby supernova, or even being stuck in-system while the sun burns out, but we can and should avoid shooting ourselves while playing with daddy's gun.

      • messe a day ago

        Ah. Now the crank alarm is ringing.