Comment by crazygringo 2 days ago
> It is true though. Like, literally.
Doesn't seem true to me. If it's true, then why is uBlock Origin Lite functioning properly as an adblocker for me?
> Why do you think it is called Lite?
Because it's simpler and uses less resources. And they had to call it something different to distinguish it from uBlock Origin.
I agree with crazygringo that uBlock Origin Lite seems to work fine for me as far as blocking ads on the websites I visit.
I also agree that these discussions can be frustrating. In my opinion, that's because people claiming that Lite isn't good enough only seem to post super vague stuff, like links to the FAQ that list a bunch of technical details about what it can't do, when I don't understand the practical upshot of those things. Or vague assertions that it's not doing something which is allegedly important, where it's never actually explained what that thing it's not doing is and why it's important.
I have yet to see anybody show a specific example of a website where Lite doesn't actually work well enough. Or of any other specific thing it's not doing. I don't think I should have to read a series of 20 web pages dense with specialized technical details to understand what it's supposedly not doing. If it can't be explained simply and clearly what it's not doing that's so important, maybe it's not actually missing anything important at all.
I suppose I am a unsophisticated user of web browsers. I never got around to understanding or interacting with all the details of what "proper" uBO can do. Yet I still seem to browse the web just fine, and even build webapps sometimes, and I don't see any ads. So what's this great thing that I'm missing?
This might not qualify according to one's perspective, but: Twitch.
Twitch takes a userscript to block ads. UBO Full can run userscripts, uBO Lite can't, so now you need an additional extension to run the script.
Of course, if you run Tampermonkey anyway, it makes no difference.
It's the most real example anyone's provided so far.
I tested it on both regular Chrome with UBO Lite and Firefix with stock full UBO, and both show ads on Twitch. I haven't looked into how to actually block them, but I'll take your word that that's the only way to do it in both cases.
It seems to me, both cases require some extra action to block ads. Full requires you to dig up a userscript and how to load it into UBO, while Lite requires you to find and install a whole extra extensions. Doesn't seem like that huge of a difference to me. I suppose some may disagree, but it's not at all hitting my bar for declarations others have made like that Lite is inadequate or Google is terrible for disabling Manifest V2.
You're reminding me, Twitch somehow got around UBO a few years ago. Oddly it was basically the only site (that I used regularly) that UBO couldn't catch.
Are you saying that everyone using UBO had to add their own script to get around it? Why didn't UBO just do it?
Are you asking why a filter doesn't suffice, or why uBO doesn't automatically load the userscript?
The answer to the former is that the script swaps in a low-res replacement stream while the ad is running, which I don't think a filter can do. As to the latter, an extension automatically executing arbitrary remote userscripts supplied by third parties would be a nightmare for security.
> super vague stuff, like links to the FAQ that list a bunch of technical details
Not being able to block remote fonts is a vague technicality? It's a feature I use, a user-facing setting, not an under-the-hood technicality. (Budding web designers have a tendency to pick overly thin fonts because it looks fancy/unique at a glance and being interested in the actual text on the webpage was not their job description)
I'm less familiar with the other things. Clicking one experimentally, it mentions:
>> The primary purpose of dynamic URL filtering [is] to fix web page breakage
Webpages break on adblocking not infrequently. I'm not a blocklist developer so I can't say how useful this particular function is, but I'm also not going to assume that, just because I don't know the technical details, that it's just handwavey technical details nobody needs to care about and everything will be the same regardless of what the most qualified person on the topic is saying
> I don't think I should have to read a series of 20 web pages dense with specialized technical details to understand what it's supposedly not doing
Consider that you're not paying for someone to produce marketing material; it's a free thing. Sometimes that means that finding out information requires reading source code, or in this case, it's probably data files that contain these dynamic thingies so you could see the list of what mitigations will stop being possible and on what kinds of sites those are. If you (or someone else) do a writeup that fills the information gap you are looking for, I'm sure a lot of other people also appreciate that existing
Well the people posting that link seem to believe it's a clear and direct response to the question of why uBO Lite is insufficient when I or others say it works fine for us.
> Not being able to block remote fonts is a vague technicality?
I suppose not, but I never noticed whether it was or was not being blocked. I'm not really sure why that's so important. It certainly doesn't seem to justify the "oh no google is totally super evil for killing manifest v2" vibe that goes on.
> Webpages break on adblocking not infrequently...
Maybe, I guess. But exactly which websites are broken on uBO Lite that were not on "full"? Can anybody give me even a single example? I've been using Lite for I think like a year or something and haven't noticed any.
I can see being a little mad if, say, https://mytotallyimportantwebsite.com was really broken on Lite and that was your favorite website. I just can't get all hot and bothered though at the idea that maybe some website that I've never seen and nobody can name is broken on Lite.
> Consider that you're not paying for someone to produce marketing material; it's a free thing.
I get that I'm not entitled to somebody's work to create a simple and clear explanation. But the argument I'm making is that uBO Lite is perfectly fine actually, which I don't think requires any evidence. It's the other side of the argument - that uBO Lite is insufficient - that needs to provide evidence to convince me. You're more than welcome to make that argument if you care to.
I'm telling you and others that posting links of technical details is not going to convince me that Lite is not good enough, that I need to be super mad at Google and switch browsers etc. If you try to tell me to do work to "educate myself", I'll say no thanks and keep on browsing just fine with uBO Lite. In my opinion, it's somebody who cares enough to make the case that I should change who should gather sufficient evidence to convince me. It's sure funny that they're all indignant and demanding as long as it's someone else they think should do work to change, but they suddenly get all quiet when asked to actually gather and present evidence to make a case to an audience that's skeptical instead of fawning.
Or more simply, if somebody wants to be a smug link-dropper, how about a link to even one single website that's broken on Lite, which I have yet to see anybody anywhere provide.
What is the adtech that's leaking through? I regularly use Youtube with uBO Lite, and it does infact consistently prevent me from seeing ads. I've yet to see a single one.
There does seem to be a war going on between Youtube and adblockers where sometimes Youtube will show me a screen saying that adblockers are prohibited instead of playing the video. But usually a full-page reload which I guess refreshes uBO's rules (either the original Full or the new Lite) fixes it. I'm pretty sure this also happened under the original full uBO, so I don't think it's specific to any new limitations of Lite.
There are a lot of different ways to respond to you, since there are so many features that have different effects. But I'll focus on one I care about, related to tracking. UBo can detect cname cloaking, where a provider hosts 3rd party tracking via a CNAME DNS record attached to their domain. UBo can detect this and block it, while the lite version cannot.
If you care only about ads, then you can determine whether the extension is working purely based on your annoyance level while surfing. But I care about tracking as well (CNAME cloaking is one example), as well as the ability to customize the experience (import my own filter lists, for example).
These capabilities aren't present in UBo Lite. So it feels like a real gap to me. For context, I was an avid UMatrix user for a very long time, but Gorhill discontinuing that showed that I was in a tiny minority. Reminds me of when James Gosling told me I was a dying breed because I still used Emacs. If the inventor of the technology doesn't even use it, maybe it's time to move on! =)
Thanks for providing a specific example! That does make more sense.
So I suppose Lite is indeed at least somewhat worse at blocking tracking. It's a legitimate concern. I admit that I don't have a ton of awareness of just how much tracking we're all subject to on the public mainstream web. Unfortunately, I fear it may be a losing battle.
What concerns me more is that there are dozens of medium to huge tech companies working full-time to track the hell out of us. That's not exactly great. uBO Lite blocks some of their stuff. I suppose uBO Full blocks more of it. But how do I know what either of them isn't blocking? It's got to be more than a full-time job to keep track of all the ways and means by which we're being tracked. Can a few determined independent individuals really effectively stop them? I tried using Firefox with NoScript for a while, but it's just too much work to fiddle with it on nearly every random site until that site works well enough to be usable.
I tend to think that, if one is truly concerned about ads and tracking, it's better to focus on staying on smaller, independent sites that do not do that at all. At least, more effective than being an individual in the middle of a full-time war between ad companies and individuals trying to block ads, trying to go to these big sites but not see the ads or be tracked.
Maybe the Brave solution is the better one - keep actual extensions to a more limited API, but more thoroughly integrate blocking of ads and tracking into the browser core. I know some people have other beefs with them, but there aren't any perfect solutions in this world.
It's also worth keeping in mind, in my opinion, that upwards of 95% of the world isn't using any ad blockers at all. Have you seen a "mainstream media" news website without any adblocking at all? Good god there's a ton of ads! How can anyone handle that! I guess we're already in a minority for trying to block ads at all, and it's an even smaller sub-minority that really cares about creating complex rules to actually block all tracking.
It's not "tons of missing functionality". It still blocks all the ads in practice.
Maybe it's less effective in some theoretical case, but not anything I've seen. People talk as if it's only blocking 10% of the ads it used to, when the reality seems to be 99.999% or something. And it's faster now.
And they removed stuff like the element zapper but that has nothing to do with Manifest v3. It's because they literally wanted it to minimize resources. You can install a dedicated zapper extension if you want that.
I genuinely don't understand where this narrative of "adblockers don't work anymore on Chrome" is coming from. Again, it's just not true, but keeps getting repeated like it is.
>>It's not "tons of missing functionality"
https://github.com/uBlockOrigin/uBOL-home/wiki/Frequently-as...
Okay. Sure.
I think the ultimate fix is to make it a felony to pay someone to say a message as if it's his own (meaning an actor Ford pays to be in an ad needs to say "Ford paid me to say ..." at the start of every sentence uttered which states an opinion, if that is not the true opinion of the actor). It must also be a felony for someone to accept money in exchange for stating provided opinions as if they were his own. Customers in ads giving true testimonial reviews must state they are being paid (if so) at the beginning of their statements in the ad. Only quantitative and qualitative content about the product or service advertised should be allowed, anything which sets tone, vibe, or otherwise emotionally communicates to the viewer needs to be banned. This also goes for food product boxes, with the additional rule that 75% of the non-barcode front label area must be nutrition and ingredients, while logo/brand work and propaganda is limited to the remaining 25%. Back label is an exact (maybe B&W) copy of the front. Ads should also mostly be found in directories where people go looking for services or things, and NOT plastered everywhere ready to rape brains for quick nickels. We need an advertising censorship board that keeps records on both ad makers and client businesses, so that chronic offenders get smacked down hard.
Once advertising is dead, you will see a much more free and level internet.
Element zapper functionality is returning: https://github.com/uBlockOrigin/uBOL-home/issues/325
One of the most frustrating things about these discussions is that it-works-on-my-machine effect. Anecdotal evidence is easily surpassed by a deeper understanding of the mechanisms that are changing. Here's what the author of uBlock Origin says about its capabilities in Manifest V3 versus Manifest V2.
> About "uBO Lite should be fine": It actually depends on the websites you visit. Not all filters supported by uBO can be converted to MV3 DNR rules, some websites may not be filtered as with uBO. A specific example in following tweet.
You can read about the specific differences in the FAQ:
https://github.com/uBlockOrigin/uBOL-home/wiki/Frequently-as...
My personal take is if you're a pretty unsophisticated user and you mostly don't actually interact with the add-ons at all, Manifest V3 will probably be fine.
If you understand how ads and tracking work and you are using advanced features of the extension to manage that, then Manifest V2 will be much, much better. Dynamic filters alone are a huge win.