Comment by nkrisc

Comment by nkrisc 2 days ago

27 replies

I thought the comparison to running was interesting. As an almost exclusively terrestrial mammal, there is a very natural way for us to run. No one is going to discover than running on our arms and legs is faster, or something other than ”unnatural” way of running is faster.

But that’s not really the case with swimming. We didn’t evolve a natural swimming instinct or form for speed.

When I learned that (nearly?) all terrestrial mammals can swim to some degree (even ones that look like they shouldn’t be able to - like ungulates), I was a bit surprised, but it’s not too surprising upon reflection. But that got me thinking then: what is the best terrestrial mammalian body plan that also happens to be good for swimming? What terrestrial mammal would also be fast swimmers if they could learn and train for it as humans do? Maybe my thinking is clouded by anthrocentrism, but the human body plan which is good for bipedal running also seems to work out pretty well for swimming.

Of course, top human swimming speeds are pretty terrible compared to human running speeds and the swimming speed of basically any other aquatic animal, but we’re not made for it!

CorrectHorseBat 2 days ago

>No one is going to discover than running on our arms and legs is faster, or something other than ”unnatural” way of running is faster.

Surprisingly not everyone seems to be convinced of that

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4928019/

  • Rendello 2 days ago

    A few years ago I tried out TikTok and quickly came to see that there are huge niches inside the platform that are barely even searchable or existent outside the app. One of which was these videos of people sprinting or galloping on all fours. It's fascinating and terrifying seeing people who've practiced do the movements, it's uncanny in both how natural and unnatural it can look. It seems to be an intersection of unconventional exercise enthusiasts and furry-types.

    Sprinting: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/6S0ctkOixj8

    Galloping / jumping: https://old.reddit.com/r/toptalent/comments/ldxsoz/these_peo...

    • quuxplusone 2 days ago

      Very cool! Reminds me of Tim Burton's "Planet of the Apes" (2001), which did quadrupedal running with practical effects — harnesses, towed treadmills, all sorts of tricks — i.e., cheating, from the POV of this thread. :)

      "Behind the Scenes of Tim Burton's Planet of the Apes": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KighzjHkZtY&t=803s "Ape School" starts at 9m35s. Quadrupedal running starts at 13m23s.

    • LoganDark 2 days ago

      Holy shit, quadrupedal running is my new favorite skill.

  • codingdave 2 days ago

    I just went down a small rabbit hole, watching some videos of quadrupedal running, and what struck me was how un-balanced the motion looked. Even the guy who is (one of) the world's fastest has this weird twist in his back while he is doing it, to make sure his knees and elbows don't smack together. That may be sustainable when you are young and strong, but I worry this guy, or anyone else who gets into this, is going to be wracked with long-term damage and in a lot of pain when older.

    • bmacho 2 days ago

      It's okay if the best motion is not symmetric. The swimming in TFA isn't symmetric either.

  • quuxplusone 2 days ago

    Ryuta Kinugasa, Yoshiyuki Usami. "How Fast Can a Human Run? Bipedal vs. Quadrupedal Running." Frontiers of Bioengineering and Biotechnology 4:56 (June 2016).

    That looks remarkably like an April Fool's article released at the wrong time of year. The second-to-last paragraph is where they reveal the joke to anyone who wasn't already in on it:

    > This study has limitations. Although statistical models are significantly related to mathematical formula [sic], the use of a statistical model to accurately predict future athletic performance is challenging (Hilbe, 2008). Fitted linear models should be treated with some caution. The use of linear regression for world record modeling would yield a continued decline that would eventually become negative, thus suggesting that update of world records can be continued until 0 s. It must also be noted that quadrupedal world records did not exist before 2008. This relatively recent involvement [sic] of quadrupedal running results in a somewhat tenuous comparison of world record times. Therefore, despite a high coefficient of determination, a large diverging confidence interval was found.—

    —and then right back into it—

    > —The 95% confidence intervals [sic] indicates that projected intersects could occur as early as in 2032 (9.238 s) or as late as 2076 (9.341 s).

    A "rebuttal paper" might accept their major premise (i.e. feasibility of "a statistical model to accurately predict future athletic performance") but argue that rather than fitting a straight line (linear regression), we should fit an exponential decay curve (exponential regression). In an appendix, we'd try fitting a hyperbola (y = K1/(x-X0) + K2), taking X0 for quadrupedal running at 2008 and X0 for bipedal running anywhere from 2 million to 10 million years ago.

    In an alternative "experimentalist approach," the rebuttal paper's author would actually run 100m himself, first on two legs and then on four; plot these as an additional data point (with x=2025) in each set; and fit a polynomial to that data. This would likely change the conclusion quite drastically. ;)

  • nkrisc 2 days ago

    I’m going to wait and see with that one.

ethan_smith 2 days ago

Bears, particularly polar bears, are terrestrial mammals with impressive swimming capabilities - they can swim up to 60 miles without rest and use a modified dog paddle that's remarkably efficient.

  • seszett a day ago

    To be precise though the species is called Ursus maritimus and it is often considered a semi-aquatic species rather than just a terrestrial mammal.

Etheryte 2 days ago

This is a stretch for what you might consider terrestrial, but polar bears swim faster than olympic athletes. Moose also swim hella fast, so funnily enough it's the same guys in water as on land that you have to look out for.

  • navbaker 2 days ago

    I had no idea how enormous moose were until I had to go to Fairbanks a few years ago for a work thing. It was unreal sitting in line waiting to move through the gate at the air base and seeing a moose casually running down along the 8 foot fence along the perimeter and realizing it was taller than the fence!

n4r9 2 days ago

Hippos famously cannot swim, despite spending lots of time in water. They're too dense to float. There used to be a BBC filler video in the UK that featured an animation of hippos swimming from below. It was pure fantasy. In reality they hop along the bottom.

chrisco255 2 days ago

Beavers, with their wide flat tails, are very good swimmers. Looking it up though it seems black bears are the fastest overall although I believe beavers are the fastest relative to their body size.

  • nkrisc 2 days ago

    I would definitely consider beavers to be at least partially aquatic, considering they lodge in aquatic environments and need to live near water.

chrisco255 2 days ago

The human body plan is also pretty good for climbing. The dynamism of the human body is why we thrive in so many environments.

  • nkrisc 2 days ago

    That doesn’t surprise me though, considering our ancestors and almost all of our closest relatives are arboreal. We are descended from climbers. Our lack of climbing ability relative to other primates makes us the odd ones out.

    • PaulDavisThe1st 2 days ago

      Strange comment. Strange because at the high end, I very much doubt that any non-human ape will ever get close to Adam Ondra's ascent of "Silence" (9c). On the other hand, the average human is very much less able to climb trees and other topologically similar objects than most apes. So I am not sure that it really makes sense to talk about "our lack of climbing ability" - in humans, it is unevenly exercised and thus shows huge range, but the best humans can climb in ways that I doubt most or any other apes could.

      • nkrisc 2 hours ago

        I think if any other primate trained as much Adam Ondra has they would completely smoke him in any climbing challenge. You're comparing apples to oranges. He is an extreme outlier, it makes no sense to compare an extreme outlier from one group to the average of another. The vast majority of humans can't even do what he's done.

      • krisoft 2 days ago

        > Strange comment.

        Not realy. It is pretty common to compare the average ability when we are comparing between species. For example when we say cheetahs can run at X m/s we don’t talk about the speed of the fastest cheetah who won the cheetah olympics. They just measured a few and we use that as a basis.

        > I very much doubt that any non-human ape will ever get close to Adam Ondra's ascent of "Silence" (9c).

        I don’t know what you base this on. Is this just a hunch? Are we talking here about the chances of a monkey randomly catching a fancy for that cliff? Because i agree that is unlikely to happen. But with a sufficintly trained and motivated one I wouldn’t be so sure.

      • dralley a day ago

        Chrome's marketing budget is nearly as large as Mozilla's entire budget. They spent a couple of years actively targeting Firefox users with Chrome ads on the frontpage of google.com, and got Adobe Flash and Java and most of the free antivirus solutions to auto-install Chrome and make it the default browser.

        I have yet to hear anyone on HN present an argument for how Mozilla could effectively counter that onslaught. Certainly not without using methods that they would also have complained about. (Though nobody seems to hold Chrome's bloatware tactics against them for some reason).

  • bmacho 2 days ago

    > The dynamism of the human body is why we thrive in so many environments.

    I'd say it's our hand to make tools, our brain to plan, and out throat/mouth to communicate

michaelhoney a day ago

Otters are pretty good, and they're basically mustelid-shaped. Long and thin.