Comment by cardanome

Comment by cardanome 10 days ago

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Here in Germany you are currently only allowed to work 48hours per week. Also there are strict laws for companies to actually track work time.

So it is absolutely impossible for someone here to have two full time jobs without committing working time fraud.

But even if you could, it would make literally no sense two have jobs as you earn vastly more with freelancing anyway. You would scam yourself.

The most optimal move is to have one regular job so you get health care and social security and do freelancing on the side. If you work contract allows that, of course.

oc1 10 days ago

not only that but the german tax system is designed in a way to make holding multiple jobs as unattractive as possible.

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Teever 10 days ago

Really? Like, in Germany it's illegal for someone to have a full-time job doing software and then a side business making soap and selling it at a farmer's market on the weekend?

That's... peculiar.

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  • cardanome 10 days ago

    No, that case would be fine if the side business would be being self-employed. No one cares how many hours you work if you are self-employed. (Mostly, I am simplifying here)

    What is an issue is working employed for two jobs and going over the 48 hour limits.

    Working that much is very unhealthy so the state needs to protect people from being exploited. People should be able to live from working full time. Having to work multiple jobs and to destroy your own health is morally abhorrent.

    Under German law being employed by a company and being self-employed are legally very distinct things. If you are employed you get protection from being fired, you have to have health care, pay into the retirement fond and so on.

    If you are self-employed you are on your own. You can decide if you use public or private health care, you need to figure out how to save up for retirement yourself and so own. You get more freedom but less protection. That is because the law realizes that working people need protection from exploitation but also wants to give freedom to those that want to try their own business.

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    • Teever 10 days ago

      > Working that much is very unhealthy so the state needs to protect people from being exploited.

      I get that the state needs to protect people from being exploited but I'm not sure this is the right way to go about it.

      It seems to me that it would be better if the state had policies in place to ensure that one full-time job (or less even) provided sufficient income to enable a person to live self-sufficiently and raise a family.

      Working a full-time job and raising a family is often a more stressful thing than a single person working a job that requires over-time. I don't see why the state should regulate how someone without kids spends their free time if that person wants to work.

      Some people are just naturally inclined to be active, whether it's some combination of work, family, volunteering, and sports activities while others are not. I have a friend who is constantly working and constantly going to concerts and playing on several sports teams. His life seems stressful to me and far beyond how I want to spend my life but he enjoys it.

      The state shouldn't restrict people from choosing how to spend their time, but instead should strive to create a society where people aren't forced to spend too much of their time working to meet their basic needs, with the ultimate goal of gradually reducing the time needed to do so over time.

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      • cardanome 10 days ago

        > I don't see why the state should regulate how someone without kids spends their free time if that person wants to work.

        So single people that can work 60 hours a day would get all the careers options while the person raising children is left in the dust? Does not sound fair.

        > Some people are just naturally inclined to be active, whether it's some combination of work, family, volunteering, and sports activities while others are not.

        That sounds like a healthy mix of activities. On the other hand working 60 hours a week is not.

        > The state shouldn't restrict people from choosing how to spend their time,

        It does not. You can create your own business and work yourself to death if you wish to. Again, the protection is for those that are employed by others.

        Or in other words: You are allowed to hurt your own health as an entrepreneur but you are not allowed to employ people in such a way that it excessively hurts their health, even if they "consent" to it. Thing is, they can't consent because there is a power imbalance. Even if you make laws that people working less hours should not be discriminated, you can't really stop it.

        Not to mention someone who is a workaholic needs psychological help not the "freedom" to work more.

        > but instead should strive to create a society where people aren't forced to spend too much of their time working to meet their basic needs, with the ultimate goal of gradually reducing the time needed to do so over time.

        We already could already be working significantly less. I always like to link https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/

        That is just not how capitalism works. Yes, you can fight for wage increases. You can fight for limits of working hours. But those gains will have to be paid in blood.

        You idea would only work under socialism which had the Subbotnik which was volunteer unpaid labor on the weekends for the betterment of society.

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  • shankr 10 days ago

    Yes! It basically means you go full on freelance or just stay put with whatever job you have. I wanted to try freelancing before I quite my full time job but it's not that easy legally.

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    • cardanome 10 days ago

      I am a bit confused why you think it is not easy. In fact you have the right to reduce your hours from full time to part time if your company employs more than 15 people. So you can easily make time for a freelancing job on the side.

      Also you don't really need to track your hours when freelancing other than maybe for billing purposes so you really don't need to worry about hours anyway. Generally you are considered part-time self-employed when doing less than 18 hours per week.

      Earning a bit on the side is really not an issue in Germany. In fact the combination of having a part time employed job and then doing freelancing is very popular.

      What doesn't work is being full time employed at two companies but that would make no sense even if you could as you would earn much less and pay insane taxes.

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      • shankr 9 days ago

        > In fact you have the right to reduce your hours from full time to part time if your company employs more than 15 people.

        Having the right and your employer agreeing to it isn't the same. Do you want people to go to the court if the employer denies it with the risk of losing the job?

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