Comment by speakfreely

Comment by speakfreely 6 months ago

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So I ask this question in good faith: What are the due process rights that have been taken away? What is this administration doing different from the prior ones in regards to detaining suspected illegal immigrants? While I don't doubt there could be something, I haven't seen a coherent answer to this question.

I am happy to change my mind, but in this situation all I see is a political candidate interfering with federal agents and getting arrested for it. I see lots of really questionable things happening, like these agents wearing masks and dressing in hoodies, but mentioning that does not address the due process question. If someone could address this point directly and without hyperbole, I am eager to be better informed about it.

UmGuys 6 months ago

They're deporting them without trial. They don't even try to confirm they capture the right people. They've arrested several US citizens. Notice where this arrest occurred: at a courthouse. Why? Because this person was complying with the law and going through the immigration process.

What about masked men kidnapping random people, then sending them somewhere like a prison in El Salvador seems just to you? Do you remember this happening previously in your life?

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  • gman83 6 months ago

    I feel like they're arresting these people at courthouses so that it will instill fear in others of going through the legal process. Then they can deport many more immigrants and say "look, they didn't go to court, they're definitely illegal".

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  • speakfreely 6 months ago

    My understanding is that they're doing this under the "expedited removal" provision of the 1996 IIRIRA law. If you've been in the US less than 2 years, arrived without inspection or at a port of entry with invalid documents, or don't have lawful resident status, you're subject to expedited removal. If not, you are entitled to an administrative immigration hearing.

    For some context, under Obama in 2013, there were roughly 197,000 expedited removals (45% of ~432,000 total deportations). So this was widely used by DHS during the Obama administration. Nothing has changed except ICE policies about where people are permitted to be detained and where they are targeting people. Unless I'm missing something?

    I'll be the first to admit they look like masked goons and entirely unprofessional grabbing people off the street in hoodies. It's horrible optics and is absurdly unprofessional. I completely disagree with the mechanics of how this is being carried out. But it's not unconstitutional or unlawful as far I can tell.

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    • acdha 6 months ago

      > But it's not unconstitutional or unlawful as far I can tell.

      The problem is that you can’t tell: if they follow the law, you can be fairly confident that it is constitutional but when they’re rapidly deporting people without hearings and with officers actively resisting oversight, we have only their word that the people being deported do in fact meet those criteria. Since they’ve been documented as detaining citizens, lying about things like asylum claims or criminal status, etc. in many cases, their word alone is now untrustworthy for any case. They chose to create that distrust and the only way to build trust is for them to stop prioritizing quotas over legality.

      What’s happening now is exactly what happens every time some incompetent boss tells everyone to hit a number no matter what, except that the stakes are far higher.

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      • speakfreely 6 months ago

        > Since they’ve been documented as detaining citizens

        So I've seen this claim a few times and I have personally heard of a few well publicized cases where this occurred. Given the nature of the work, I'd imagine it's almost impossible for this not to happen at some point. From Wikipedia:

        - Between FY 2015 and Q2 FY 2020, ICE arrested 674 individuals believed to be U.S. citizens, detained 121, and deported 70 (GAO)

        - From 2012 to early 2018, ICE wrongfully arrested and detained around 1,480 U.S. citizens

        - 2008-2012 saw 834 U.S. citizens and 28,489 permanent residents mistakenly placed on immigration detainers .

        So it seems this may have been happening at an even higher rate under other administrations. This is not a defense of the practice... I can't describe how angry I would be if this happened to someone in my family. But I am trying to be objective and react based on numbers, not emotions, and convince others to do the same.

        > What’s happening now is exactly what happens every time some incompetent boss tells everyone to hit a number no matter what, except that the stakes are far higher.

        My biggest concern is that words being misused are burning the credibility that may eventually be necessary. It would not surprise me if Trump started ordering them to do unconstitional and unlawful things. But if you've been throwing those words around carelessly and inaccurately, you'll have no credibility to use them when the need truly arises.

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