Comment by lmm

Comment by lmm 2 days ago

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> weren’t imposed by an aliens, they were enacted by democratically elected representatives

Elected at the state level, sure. But it was against the will of the national electorate and they knew it. Democracy means going along with popular decisions even if you disagree, not finding tricks to undermine what was nationally agreed because your corner of the country doesn't like it.

> the kind of people most of the electorate want enforcement focused on, not gardeners and farm workers.

Most of the electorate wants all illegal immigrants deported, not just the ones caught committing violent crimes.

acdha 2 days ago

> Elected at the state level, sure. But it was against the will of the national electorate and they knew it.

Surveys have shown for many years that most people nationwide want a legal path to immigration for law-abiding workers. Sanctuary laws exist solely because a minority of the population has been able to game the Congressional structure to prevent immigration reform while also shielding the businesses which depend on cheap, exploitable workers from punishment.

I suspect that you would complain strenuously if the United States changed from a republic to the direct democracy you are arguing for in this case, or many others where unpopular policies are maintained due to the odd structure of our government.

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  • lmm 2 days ago

    > Surveys have shown for many years that most people nationwide want a legal path to immigration for law-abiding workers.

    A path, perhaps. Not carte blanche.

    > Sanctuary laws exist solely because a minority of the population has been able to game the Congressional structure to prevent immigration reform while also shielding the businesses which depend on cheap, exploitable workers from punishment.

    Nah. That's at most a convenient fig-leaf for their motivations.

    > I suspect that you would complain strenuously if the United States changed from a republic to the direct democracy you are arguing for in this case, or many others where unpopular policies are maintained due to the odd structure of our government.

    You suspect wrong. And I'm not saying there's no case where the government should decide they know better than the people, but when they oppose the will of the people they should do it openly and directly, not with procedural rules-lawyering and disingenuous "tee-hee we're not actually opposing the law we're just prioritising other laws" arguments.

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pjc50 2 days ago

> Enacted at the state level, sure. But it was against the will of the national electorate and they knew it.

This is the most extreme version of the anti-states rights argument and effectively claims the California legislature shouldn't exist.

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  • lmm 2 days ago

    There are plenty of things that are rightly decided at state level. That doesn't mean it's OK for states to undermine the rules the populace (via their duly elected federal representatives) have chosen to make law at federal level. (And in any case it would be practically impossible to set immigration policy at state level, given that we don't have any intranational border control).

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    • pjc50 2 days ago

      Where in the black letter law does it say that ICE are allowed to arrest US nationals?

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      • lmm 2 days ago

        What does that have to do with anything? If you believed some ICE officers were making illegal arrests (presumably you know their arrests are perfectly legal, since I can't see why else you'd bring up "black letter law"), the remedy for that would be to bring charges for wrongful imprisonment, not to take it as an excuse to obstruct or attack other ICE officers.

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        • nobody9999 2 days ago

          >What does that have to do with anything?

          You do realize that this entire discussion is about an American citizen and an elected official no less (and not the first one) arrested by "ICE" (we don't really know who those folks are because they won't identify themselves), right?

          Are you that removed from reality that you can't parse the title of the discussion in which you are participating?

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jmye 2 days ago

Why do you think the “national electorate” should have any say in California state laws? Is it just a basic lack of understanding civics, or do you think states, cities and local communities should be abolished because people in Alabama should actually be in charge of people in Sacramento?

I’m so tired of absolute nonsense like this being said by people who clearly know absolutely nothing about how this country works. Is this just barely disguised foreign agitation?

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  • lmm 2 days ago

    > Why do you think the “national electorate” should have any say in California state laws? Is it just a basic lack of understanding civics, or do you think states, cities and local communities should be abolished because people in Alabama should actually be in charge of people in Sacramento?

    Immigration law isn't California state law, it's federal law, duly passed (and frankly any other approach would be crazy, unless you're proposing to introduce border checks between states). If the duly elected federal government felt it appropriate to leave the matter to the states, they would! If it was constitutionally inappropriate, the legislature would strike it down. States set their own laws on a lot of matters, but they don't get to opt out of federal laws they don't like.

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    • immibis 2 days ago

      The legislature writes unconstitutional laws all the time.

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      • lmm a day ago

        Sorry, misspoke, I meant the judiciary would strike it down.

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sigmar 2 days ago

As the other comment stated- You're saying that _your opinion_ was "what was nationally agreed" to. Trump has at many points stated illegals (daca recipients) should have a path to citizenship, do you think some trump voters might have believed trump when he said that and voted for that position?

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