Comment by Juliate

Comment by Juliate 2 days ago

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There's a thing I don't get, as a non-USAmerican.

If someone unidentified, masked, showing no warrant, no legal justification of anything, kidnaps/attempts to kidnap someone, how are (organised) citizens not in their legitimate right to retaliate, according to what their local state allows them to?

Similarly, why/how are the law enforcement units not taking side against those kidnapping?

I mean, in my country, this would obviously call for immediate intervention of the police, but maybe that's because I'm still in a country where administrative enforcement is still ultimately under the control of the judiciary branch.

nemomarx 2 days ago

The cops personally agree with them, and so wouldn't intervene in any case.

I do think there's precedent that it's self defense to fire on an unidentified stranger who knocks on your door or tries to arrest you without showing ID, but you need to make it to court to press that defense and I can't say it's a great strategy for that reason

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metalcrow 2 days ago

In theory, they are within their rights to retaliate. If an unknown person tried to kidnap you and doesn't present any form of ID, you have a very very strong case of self defense and genuine threat, and that would likely (IANAL) hold up in court if you ended up shooting them. It ended up holding up for Randy Weaver! You would want to surrender immediately upon being shown some ID, of course, but you could get away with it.

As for why law enforcement isn't taking sides, it's because doing so would basically be the start of a state succession attempt, and would bring federal agents in to take over the state. Some states have claimed they are willing to do that in certain situations (Alaska has said in the past it will use state troopers against government if they try to enact certain gun control laws), but no one is willing to go there yet. The best they can do now is categorically refuse to assist the feds.

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  • Juliate 2 days ago

    But how do they know those are federal agents?

    I mean, if masked, unidentified people are kidnapping other people, what prevents _other_ masked, unidentified people to attack the kidnappers?

    Where this goes, as I understand it from my European heritage, is that you are _already_ in a situation where there's a strong incentive for an active resistance force to appear.

    ICE is clearly working as both an oppressive force, and as an incitement to violence. There have been precedents in history. It never ended well for _them_.

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    • metalcrow a day ago

      If you're asking why the state isn't stopping them, that is part of the power asymmetry between states and the federal government. The federal government can, effectively, do whatever the hell it wants with no punishment because of a number of emergent reasons. States cannot, and if they attempted to would get dog piled by a dozen different checks and balances metrics.

      If you're referring to why a civilian milita isn't spinning to to stop them, that's because there are (basically) two groups of people in the US. The type that are strongly pro gun, pro militia, and have knowledge in both are generally actually supportive of this particular case, and furthermore wouldn't act anyway unless they or people they like were directly targeted. This is an unfortunate cultural aspect of the US, and correcting it would have a lag time of many decades. Furthermore, the groups that did attempt to correct it got crushed by the federal government for a few decades (see the MOVE bombings, and the Black Partners history), so are extra behind. However, spinning up a small militia for directly opposing this may happen. It would look similar to the CHAZ, but that requires a large group of dedicated and motivated people to spontaneously group together.

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      • Juliate a day ago

        Thanks for the explanation. I hadn't thought the pro gun/militia type was consistent with pro trump/conservative.

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