Comment by zaphar

Comment by zaphar 3 days ago

25 replies

I don't know. If you are in posession of enough of a controlled substance to kill 300 people I'm kind of okay with a drastic response. For every Preston Thorpe who turns their life around there 100s of others who will just go out and keep endangering lives like this. I think this is a nuanced topic and 10-30 years is too much for drug possession is entirely lacking the necessary nuance to evaluate. Comparison to other crimes is not particularly useful either without going into the relative harms of each as compared to the harms of the other.

stickfigure 3 days ago

"enough of a controlled substance to kill" is an absurd, inflammatory metric. They guy was selling a good to willing and aware buyers and we have no reason to believe he was trying to kill anyone.

He shouldn't be in prison, period.

  • Aurornis 3 days ago

    > They guy was selling a good to willing and aware buyers

    In general, high-potency opioids are cut (diluted) with other powders and then sold as a different product to unsuspecting buyers.

    Most fentanyl overdoses are from people who thought they were consuming a different, more familiar opioid. Fentanyl and other synthetic opioids like this one are preferred by drug dealers because it's much easier to smuggle a tiny amount of powder and cut it 1000X than to smuggle the real product.

    It's nearly impossible for amateurs to properly dilute a powder like this, so the end product has a lot of "hot spots" that lead to overdose.

    • potato3732842 3 days ago

      They're sold as some other known opiod and the dealers typically try to dose them to be equivalent because that's all they're getting paid for.

      There is no incentive to give out "free drugs", not least because you might kill an otherwise paying customer.

      • lurk2 3 days ago

        > There is no incentive to give out "free drugs", not least because you might kill an otherwise paying customer.

        I take it you’ve never seen Runaway Jury?

  • zurfer 3 days ago

    Drug dealers should face prison time. They know that they are breaking the law and potentially ruining lifes for their own profit.

  • lurk2 3 days ago

    > we have no reason to believe he was trying to kill anyone.

    If someone gave a loaded hand gun to a small child, there might not be any reason to believe that this person was trying to kill the small child, but when the child inevitably shoots himself or someone else, the one who gave the child the gun in the first place shares at least some of the blame.

    You may protest that children are not comparable to adult drug addicts; to this, I’d suggest taking a walk through any major metro area in America and deciding for yourself if “willing and aware” are appropriate words to describe these addicts.

  • BeetleB 3 days ago

    > They guy was selling a good to willing and aware buyers and we have no reason to believe he was trying to kill anyone.

    People have already addressed the "aware" part, but "willing"? Really? Do you understand how addiction works?

    I'd bet a lot of money that they saved some number of lives by catching him. He was engaging in an activity that had a high probability of resulting in some deaths. I can sell knives in a store, and I have a reasonable level of confidence that no one died because of those knives. Here, the probabilities are inverted.

  • Hamuko 3 days ago

    >They guy was selling a good to willing and aware buyers

    How do you know that they were both willing and aware? Just how aware is your average drug buyer on what they're buying and how upfront your average drug seller on what they're selling?

  • skeeter2020 3 days ago

    >> to willing and aware buyers

    This part is really debatable, based on what we're seeing with overdoses. The dealers (probably) know what they're selling but I'm not sure the buyers do, which even for a legal good would be a crime.

  • simulator5g 3 days ago

    I really doubt he told the buyers this was synthetic BS, more likely he lied to all his customers about the substance and thus could have killed them due to mis-dosing...

croemer 3 days ago

3,000 not 300 if my maths are correct (and lethal dose)

const_cast 3 days ago

A pack of cigarettes is enough nicotine to kill a grown man. Provided you smoke them all at once.

It's a bad measurement.

conductr 3 days ago

How many deadly chemicals are in an average home? Every time I fill up my car with gas, I buy enough to commit dozens of cases of arson.

Intent matters and there's no reason to believe he intended to harm anyone. I believe it's a crime and should be a felony but this sentence is a bit extreme in terms of punishment fitting the crime.

  • skeeter2020 3 days ago

    the conviction was literally for the intent to distribute; RTFM

    • ranger_danger 3 days ago

      Of course the decision is ultimately up to the individual judge/jury, but I think you'd be hard-pressed to find one that would consider it reasonable that an ordinary dealing of drugs be akin to an "intent to harm".

      Unless the circumstances of a particular drug transaction directly caused some other harm, like a fight, I highly doubt the charges would be considered 'violent' and hence carry the harm aspect.

    • conductr 3 days ago

      I read it and I simply don't think intent to distribute should be synonymous with intent to kill. There are violent crimes with actual victims that serve less time than this. This is a mathematical calculation of damage that could have been done in worst possible scenario, no evidence of that scenario playing out at all.

      This math of weights and maximum hypothetical carnage produces very unfair sentencing.

  • Hamuko 3 days ago

    Gasoline isn't a controlled substance for one.

  • Aurornis 3 days ago

    > Every time I fill up my car with gas, I buy enough to commit dozens of cases of arson.

    Did you read the link? They also found scales, baggies, and Carfentanil (a more potent version of fentanyl).

    Filling your car up with gas doesn't compare. A better analogy would be if you tried to fill up a 10,000 gallon tank of gasoline that you couldn't possibly use yourself, all while having a truck full of matches and explosives, and a map to a building with a big circle around it.

    • conductr 3 days ago

      No evidence this guy was trying to start a massive explosion with a single target. Most evidence is that he was trying to start a lot of tiny fires just like I could with the 20 gallons of gas that's in my tank. Except, not even that because he was just reselling the fuel and the consumer gets to decide how big of a fire they want to create.

      Intent to distribute is a huge scam and calculates out to a unjustly long sentence for a lot of minor offenders. I'm not arguing it shouldn't be illegal or even tack on some extra time above just normal possession, but 15-30 years is absurd for what this guy did in my opinion.

tshaddox 3 days ago

I wonder what the sentencing guidelines are for possession of a firearm with enough ammunition to kill 300 people.

Muromec 3 days ago

[flagged]

  • bufferoverflow 3 days ago

    Decriminalization in Portugal and in Oregon ended up in disasters. Resulted in more drug addicts, more violent crime, more crazy behaviors, more people laying or crawling in the streets.

    https://www.seattletimes.com/opinion/the-hard-drug-decrimina...

    • tiagod 3 days ago

      That article is concluding that decriminalisation in Portugal didn't work, by comparing drug users in 2022 with the year of decriminalisation in 2001, and comparing overdose rates between 2018 and 2022. I don't find that very honest.

      Consumption is rising worldwide, and nobody knows what these metrics would show had Portugal not decriminalised consumption of hard drugs.

      Also, the reason for decriminalisation wasn't simply to lower addiction rates, it was mostly to stop getting people in jail for consuming, which was making the issue worse.

    • jdenning 3 days ago

      I agree that decriminalization in Oregon didn't go well, but it's more complicated that "decriminalization doesn't work". I lived in Portland at the time (and yes, I voted for decriminalization). What I observed:

        - The rehab programs were never properly available
        
        - The general culture in Portland made it very difficult for the city to form any coherent response to homelessness. Most people in Portland really want to be "compassionate" to the homeless/drug addicted/mentally ill, so there was strong pushback on any effort to clear homeless encampments (literally to the point that people were advocating for changes in building code that would force commercial buildings to *enable* homeless people to sleep in front of them by building sleeping platforms.)
        
        - This time period overlaps the BLM protests (which were absolutely massive in Portland), with all the "Defund the Police" / "ACAB". Indeed, the majority of Portland has been very anti-police since the late '90s. The police, obviously, didn't like this. From anec-data, it seemed to me that the street cops just stopped even bothering arresting people. (Here's an anecdote - a friend of mine was riding mass transit, with homeless men both behind him and in front of him, who got in to a conflict that resulted in one man brandishing a knife. The police were called and showed up at the next stop, no arrests were made.)
       To make the point abundantly clear, the brandishing of knives in public was never decriminalized, but the police absolutely stopped enforcing *any* laws on the homeless.
      
        - Oregon is generally terrible at implementing anything, even well-supported, popular programs fail to achieve even basic milestones of success. There's also a general lack of funding for most everything.
      
        - COVID
      
        - Fenatnyl use rose massively, nationwide, in spite of local drug policy. The negative effects have definitely been more pronounced in far-left cities, but it's disingenuous to assume that decriminalization increased usage.
      
      Don't get me wrong, things got bad. They still are - it's why my wife and I moved after living there for decades. But let's not declare decriminalization as a universally bad policy; the drug war has also been extremely bad too, and it's had a lot more time to work. IMO, the very existince of fentanyl and carafentanyl are direct results of the drug war.
      • bufferoverflow a day ago

        Things got so bad, that you had to move, as a result of all the policies that you support. Consider that your policies are not good, and your defense of them doesn't look like defense at all.

        And some of your reasons make no sense. COVID/fentanyl didn't just hit Portland.

        > stopped even bothering arresting people

        Oh, look, the direct consequence of your actions and your policies. You declare that ALL cops are bad, and then complain when they stop doing what they do. And your DA releases nearly all arrested people without a charge because "compassion", so cops have no reason to arrest anyone.

        Again, consider that your policies and ideas are horrible.