Comment by tsimionescu

Comment by tsimionescu 21 hours ago

5 replies

But the point is that, regardless of how you choose to describe or even measure the system, it will need exactly as much heat to raise its temperature by 1 degree (or it will need as much kinetic energy to increase the average velocity of the constituents by the same amount, in the microstate framework). So there is some objective nature to entropy, it's not merely a function of subjective knowledge of a system. Or, to put it another way, two observers with different amounts of information on the microstate of a system will still measure it as having the same entropy.

kgwgk 20 hours ago

There is some objective nature to the operational definition of entropy based on an experimental setup where you fix the volume and measure the temperature or whatever.

And this is related to the statistical mechanical definition of entropy based on the value of the corresponding state variables.

But it’s not a property of the microstate - it’s a property of the macrostate which makes sense only in the context of the experimental constraints and measurements.

If we relate entropy to work that can be extracted someone with a better understanding of the state of the system and operational access to additional degrees of freedom can extract additional work.

Thermodynamics assumes the state variables provide a complete description of the system. Statistical mechanics assumes the state variables provide an incomplete description of the system - and work out what that entails.

  • tsimionescu 19 hours ago

    > But it’s not a property of the microstate - it’s a property of the macrostate which makes sense only in the context of the experimental constraints and measurements.

    The same can be said about the wavefunction then, right? You can't directly observe it, you can only use it to predict the statistics of a particular experimental setup. So, at worse, entropy is as real as wavefunction amplitudes.

    > If we relate entropy to work that can be extracted someone with a better understanding of the state of the system and operational access to additional degrees of freedom can extract additional work.

    Is this actually true? Per my understanding, if I give you three containers, two of which are filled with some kind of gas that you know nothing about, and the third with a mix of those same gases, you can measure their entropy using thermodynamic experiments and tell which of the three is a mix of the other two because it will have a higher entropy. So, you can extract more work from one of the boxes despite not knowing anything more about it.

    • kgwgk 19 hours ago

      > Per my understanding

      What’s the source of that understanding? You cannot measure the entropy, only changes of entropy - which will be the same (for an ideal gas).

      Edit: we already had this discussion, by the way: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42434862

      • tsimionescu 16 hours ago

        > You cannot measure the entropy, only changes of entropy

        You can measure the changes in entropy from a minimal state and integrate - and you'll get the "total" entropy.

        And thanks for looking it up! I remembered a very similar conversation and was wondering if you were the same person, but was a bit lazy to search :)

        • kgwgk 16 hours ago

          > You can measure the changes in entropy from a minimal state and integrate - and you'll get the "total" entropy

          That doesn’t help with the following (at least if you keep those kinds of gas in gas state):

          > if I give you three containers […] you can measure their entropy using thermodynamic experiments and tell which of the three is a mix of the other two because it will have a higher entropy

          But you can weight them, it’s much easier.