Comment by Quarrelsome

I work for a company that's still obsessed with micro services. "Religious" is a pretty good way to describe it. Drives me absolutely nuts, especially when no one seems to understand what micro services are. I've seen at least half a dozen teams that have just created a distributed monolith and called it a micro service because they're using Docker and Kubernetes.

ORMs are basically the enemy of rdbms, by encouraging antipatterns and undermining language features they have easily done more harm than good. of course reasonable people can be trusted to use them reasonably but if you're arguing about it on the internet..

Haha. I’ve actually had an ORM attempt to load the whole database just to do a count. That was a fun bug to dig into (nobody noticed until we had a big enough customer) and an easy fix. Literally, all I had to do was mark some fields as lazy loaded.

I'm not hugely experimented, and SQL has always been enough for me, perhaps due to my simple requirements. But so far I hold the opinion that ORM is always a mistake.

I find a lot of programmers don't know how to write an array of floats to disk, if you forced me to choose between an ORM or No DB at all, I would choose no DB all day.

ORM feels like an abstraction on top of an abstraction. I don't trust that those who chose ORMs have studied and exhausted the possibilities of the two underlying layers, I feel more often than not they recourse to higher layers of technology without understanding the lower level.

But I may be wrong, maybe those who use ORMs know all about File systems and Posix and SQL itself.

It also reminds me of the people who ask chatgpt to write a prompt for them, it's as if you had a dishwasher and you were too lazy to load the dishes onto the dishwasher, so you buy a product that loads the dishes to the dishwasher.

Most teams that “use raw SQL” end up accidentally writing ORMs anyway. You have a bunch of similar SQL queries so someone writes a SQL generator. Someone notices that if we are using one field from the account table, then we usually want the others, so they create an Account object and share it to reduce duplication.

You’re usually better off starting with a good standard ORM at the beginning.

Yeah, I've had almost the same experience with people and ORMs. Often they'll make a good point about some weakness of some specific ORM, but it is almost always some use case that represents 1% (or less) of their application. Worse, there's nothing stopping them from just using sql for those couple of times that they need to bypass the ORM. After all, there's no reason to be religious about it and only use one tool.