Comment by btilly

Comment by btilly 5 days ago

It should be true in the stronger sense.

Suppose that you've written down a function enumerate, that maps all natural numbers to functions that themselves map all natural numbers to booleans. We then can write down the following program.

    (defn unenumerated (n) (not ((enumerate n) n)))

This function can be recognized as Cantor diagonalization, written out as a program.

If enumerate actually works as advertised, then it can't ever find unenumerated. Because if (enumerate N) is unenumerated, then ((enumerate N) N) will hit infinite recursion and therefore doesn't return a boolean.

This argument is, of course, just Cantor's diagonalization argument. From an enumeration, it produces something that can't be in that enumeration.

skissane 5 days ago

> If enumerate actually works as advertised, then it can't ever find unenumerated. Because if (enumerate N) is unenumerated, then ((enumerate N) N) will hit infinite recursion and therefore doesn't return a boolean.

Okay, but if we take the position that only non-halting (for all inputs) programs represent functions over N, if your program “unenumerated” never halts for some N, it doesn’t represent a function, so your argument isn’t a case of “using the enumeration of all functions to produce something which doesn’t belong to the enumeration”

Obviously an enumeration of all computable functions isn’t itself computable. But if we consider Axiom CompFunc “if a function over N is computable then it exists” (so this axiom guarantees the existence of all computable functions, but is silent on whether any non-computable functions exist) and then we consider the additional Axiom CountReals “there exists a function from N to all functions over N”, then are those two axioms mutually inconsistent? I don’t think your argument, as given, directly addresses this question

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btilly 5 days ago

It's just a straight up liar's paradox. If enumerate is a function that works as advertised, then unenumerated is as well. If enumerate tries to list unenumerated, then enumerate can't work as advertised.
For the argument that I gave to work, you need what you might call Axiom ComposeFunc, you may always compose a new function by taking an existing function and doing something that is known to be valid with it. Obviously this axiom is true about the computable universe. But, more than that, it is also true about any generalization of "function" that behaves like most would expect a function to have.
Now it is true that your Axiom CompFunc and Axiom CountReals do not necessarily contradict each other. But CompFunc, ComposeFunc and CountReals do contradict each other, and the contradiction can be built by following Cantor's diagonalization argument.

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- skissane 5 days ago
  
  > But, more than that, it is also true about any generalization of "function" that behaves like most would expect a function to have.
  It isn’t true in NFU though, correct? At least not in the general case. Because Cantor’s argument fails in NFU
  
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  btilly 5 days ago
  
  If I understand what I just Googled correctly (definitely not guaranteed), the reason why Cantor's argument can fail in NFU is that NFU does not necessarily allow you to build a function that returns things in X, out of a function that returns functions returning things in X.
  So it has non-computable functions, but also has a type system that tries to avoid allowing self-reference. And that type system gets in the way of Cantor's argument.
  I clearly hadn't thought of this possibility. It is a constraint of a kind that doesn't show up in the computable universe.
  And so, going back, if the the Russian constructivist school does indeed center on computability, then my first answer to you was correct.
  
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