Comment by seadan83

Comment by seadan83 4 days ago

2 replies

I appreciate the additional insights, but the premise I'm pushing back on is whenever a SSH key is read, then the user account is by necessity compromised in order to do so. Given that level of a breach, there are myriad ways for an attacker to escalate privilege and exploit their access without worrying about a password on the SSH key. Namely, at that point, cracking the password on the SSH key is a tractable problem.

> They may be using directory traversal from something else to read a key without even necessarily being on the system.

At least on linux - to read the directory containing a SSH key requires the ability to also write to that directory, as the user. Therefore you can also write to '.bashrc' and all sorts of other places. I suspect Windows might have a larger attack surface, but nonetheless, a directory traversal that is able to read and write is also able to install a keylogger.

> They may be on a server somewhere where someone left a key they shouldn't have

Private key should never be transmitted over a network boundary. SSH key passwords can be bruteforced as well. Having a password on the SSH key, when the SSH key is somewhere it really should never have been, is closing the barn door after the horses have left.

> The attacker may have gotten enough of a secret to compromise some other secret store where the key is being held.

Again, getting access to the secret is enough to also have write access and be able to install a key logger. A password on the SSH key still does not help.

> They're probably on a system with user-level access only and that may not be enough to "just" install a keylogger

If a person has enough access to read a SSH key, they can also install a key logger for at least that user account. They are equivalent levels of compromise, a user account having its SSH key read is already compromised.

edit: addendum: There are certainly attacks that can only read the contents of a system, with root that can read the full system. It's just odd to think about, since at that rate the SSH keys being on a prod system is already such a big no-no. SSH keys really need to live exactly just on the personal devices of the people who own those keys - EG: it should never be the case that say a SQL injection attack that gains root level read permission over everything on a filesystem can then ever read SSH keys - cause those keys should never be on the remote system to begin with. Putting a password on private keys that are then copied to servers _is_ security theater; the keys ought to never be copied to a remote server to begin with.

jerf 3 days ago

I can tell you've not been involved in defending against an active attack. You, as the defender, do not get to play the game of "well, if I squint and read it that way, that attack wouldn't work". The attackers get to play "well, hey, if it turns out I do this and that and push it through the other thing, I get access". They are the ones who get to flow through any crack they can find. They are the ones who get to do logic chopping like you're trying to do. You don't get to argue "Well gosh, that team shouldn't have left that one permission open on that one system, that's not a best practice, if they'd followed best practices 100% of the time the attackers couldn't have gotten in...". Your job is to pick up the pieces.

  • seadan83 17 hours ago

    > I can tell you've not been involved in defending against an active attack.

    Um... I'm really happy you can mind read dude.

    The whole premise here is whether passwords on SSH keys actually help.

    SSH keys tend to live in two places: (1) a developers laptop, (2) some sort of CI/CD machine.

    The passworded SSH key helps in case (1) only when a person walks away from the laptop and leaves it unlocked. An attacker can't simply then open up a SSH terminal and then SSH to whatever they see in the history. Or, it helps in case a person has a laptop that never locks and the org is simply trying to buy enough time to rotate the persons public keys before the SSH key password is cracked. The SSH key password can buy time, yes - but it does not change the actual security posture.

    In case (2), all sorts of considerations need to be made. Though, any password would need to be encoded in a way that is just as accessible as the secret key itself. In case (2), the password really does nothing.

    So, yeah, passwording a SSH key does not really help very much. If the keys are left around, then it is the fact they are left around that is a problem. The solution is not to create a scanner that all SSH keys have a password on them, but instead be sure that no SSH keys are installed on systems where they do not belong.

    > They are the ones who get to flow through any crack they can find.

    I would agree, that is why defense in depth is a good principle just as zero trust security.

    So.. passworded SSH keys are kinda really security theater. Please give an attack vector on a persons laptop where the password SSH key is going to stop an attack that is otherwise unachievable. I'll steel man the counter position and mention that physical access is one case (except in that case we are only buying time). AFAIK, that is really it, that is the one place where a password on a SSH key helps.

    To hack a persons laptop and read contents in the .ssh directory is a full compromise. To pick up the pieces after that, you need to do things like make sure the compromise can be observed, that privilege escalation is limited. If it comes down to the password on a SSH key being last line of defense - it's game over.

    Keep in mind, your burden of proof is to show cases where SSH password actually provides a true increase in real security. The meta conversation of "well, you obviously never have.." is not interesting.

    I'll note, if it is the case that SSH passwords are actual security - then, presumably you would feel comfortable stating "yeah, the SSH key was stolen, but nothing needs to be done because the SSH key had a password on it!" It's like the locks on doors, it is for the honest people, the criminals are only slowed down but not stopped by most door locks.