Comment by IshKebab

Comment by IshKebab 6 days ago

> The devices sold like hot cake after the price cut.

Yeah but that's because they cut the price to to 1/4 of it's price!! They were offloading unsold stock at huge cost.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/aug/22/hp-touchp...

I bought one, and ... honestly even at that low price I regretted it. The software was trash. I don't know why WebOS got so much praise, it was clearly not fit for purpose.

I have an LG TV now that also runs WebOS and... it's still trash! 14 years later. The fundamental idea of using web technologies for an entire OS is bad.

That's what really killed it. This guy gushes about how amazing WebOS was but the performance was - and continues to be - too poor.

jmtulloss 6 days ago

Hey. I wrote some of that trash.

I think this is a bad take because I don’t think the core issue of the platform was that it was based on web tech. The web tech basically worked fine. However the bugginess and challenging user interface (which is actually standard today) was a huge issue. The leadership decision that was needed wasn’t to kill the touchpad 49 days after launch, it was to kill it before launch.

Palm was a raccoon backed into a corner and it was using all its cleverness to get out. But it was willing to ship stuff that wasn’t ready and couldn’t be ready with the resources we had. HP had the resources. They could have taken a good start and given it the space to become great. Maybe.

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hajile 6 days ago

webOS really needed low-level help. It took over forever to boot because (seemingly) nobody ever bothered to optimize even the low-hanging fruit. The webkit version used was slow and way behind standards and (as was the JS JIT). This was crippling for a web-first system.
That aside, the actual UX of webOS itself is still better than anything we have today and I liked my Touchpad despite the flaws.

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- jmtulloss 6 days ago
  
  Yeah, there's a lot of context there that isn't obvious from the outside and is behind my feelings that Palm just had too little too late. They shouldn't have been blindsided by the iPhone, but with that happening they really did the best they could. I'll make some brief points, but maybe I should write a blog post at some point.
  - Kernel talent was never a problem at Palm. The ex-Palm folks lead or are technical leaders at many mainstream unix-ish OSes today, plus Fuschia (Android, Apple, Chrome, Fuschia)
  - Boot times weren't the highest priority (though we did spend time on it since they were _so bad_). Battery life was. We didn't even do that well by launch date, but if Android hadn't mainlined their power-management framework before the Pre launched it would have been a joke. It was all hands on deck to get that stuff integrated in time for launch.
  - The webOS platform was actually a thin UI layer on top of an Android-like Java-based platform that never launched. The Java-based OS wasn't derivative of Android (it predated Android), but it had no differentiating features with Android already live. Booting the Java runtime _and_ the JS engine and webkit was a lot.
  - We knew we couldn't have Java running on this phone long-term, so tons of effort was going into nascent node services instead of Java ones. So all those were launching too.
  - Your memory is incorrect on the JS jit, or mine is. My memory is that we were adopting the latest v8 engines as fast as they would come out (although not as fast as chrome) because they were the only ones that could keep the thing performant.
  - Webkit was a mess, I'll give you that, but I'm surprised you noticed. Were you at palm too? Did you build apps? We generally provided UI components that were the way to build apps that, hopefully, allowed you to ignore the intricacies of exactly which webkit version you were on (at least to build an app).
  
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  hajile 6 days ago
  
  Boot times for alternative kernels were a lot faster. I can't recall exactly (it's been years), but I seem to remember that there were some simple config settings in the bootloader that could cut boot times by a lot.
  Was battery life the reason stock clocks were 1.2GHz instead of Qualcomm's recommended 1.5GHz? I used to run mine at 1.7-2GHz without any trouble (aside from battery life).
  Maybe I'm wrong about the JIT, but as I recall, the JS benchmarks under webOS were significantly worse than Android (preware ultimately wasn't enough to keep up with things and LuneOS wasn't really viable without a lot of effort, so dual-booting to Android extended the life of the tablet for quite a while).
  I wasn't at Palm, but it was noticeable during browsing (especially vs Android) and was extremely noticeable when it came to missing features. I did some EnyoJS work, but that was actually targeted at web apps rather than a webOS-specific app.
  
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FlyingSnake 6 days ago

I distinctly remember the Autumn day of 2011 when we stood in the line of the local Best Buy in West Des Moines to grab one of these. It was miles ahead of anything that was in the market that time. It could do multitasking and had a lovely intuitive UI (cards!!). I remember being blown away by it. Android and iOS freely stole features from it later.

I still have the device and it’s one of my cherished vintage devices.

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1oooqooq 6 days ago

yeah it was years ahead of apple and android (this was and2.3 days if i recall, or 4.3 which typical google was worse than 2.3)
and the emulator was better dev experience than anything else. but actually putting things on the device that had anything more than js was impossible.
and the hardware was garbage. buttons would stuck. I don't know what sort of museum you live but mines lasted 4 and 2 years before turning to literal bits (used by adults)

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- FlyingSnake 6 days ago
  
  I might be lucky because mine’s still chugging along.
  May horde contains: few old MacBooks running Linux, old Kindles running dashboards, Android phones & tablets, iPhones from OG era and even a Chumby. All of them are still working fine.
  
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wvenable 6 days ago

> I have an LG TV now that also runs WebOS and... it's still trash! 14 years later. The fundamental idea of using web technologies for an entire OS is bad.

I don't think the idea is flawed; in fact, I think modern software development has proven out this whole idea. If WebOS sucks I believe it's more because it simply doesn't get enough development attention.

Fundamentally Android also sucks but they've managed to hammer it into the platform that it is today. The same could be said for Windows. Look at Linux, fundamentally a sound platform, but nobody is there hammer the rough edges to success.

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surajrmal 5 days ago

Companies do exist to try and hammer Linux into a good desktop/laptop product. I would say that it's just not easy to do given the lack of vertical integration. Redhat centralizing everything into systemd has probably gone the longest way towards improving things. Of course that is odds with the perceived benefits of having many competing options to perform the job of any given piece of software.

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onli 6 days ago

> That's what really killed it. This guy gushes about how amazing WebOS was but the performance was - and continues to be - too poor.

We certainly do have the performance in such devices to run an OS application layer with web technology now. Many people do anyway, just directly in the browser and with electron. Easier on a PC, but completely possible on TVs and phones. If webOS is slow now on your TV that's because of LG's development capabilities, not because of the technology.

I had both a Touchpad and a HP Veer. The performance was completely fine, especially after the mod scene provided kernel updates with overclocks, plus tunings for the UI. Especially compared to common devices of the time. Those were very good signs for the cut next hardware iteration.

The great thing about webOS was the usability, just how the interface worked was awesome. It's no accident that Android copied the card interface a few years later, with Android 5 I think, and the gestures again a few years later, with Android 10 or 11. Probably coming from Palm were also some nice ideas about how to integrate apps and core functionality.

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RajT88 6 days ago

WebOS LG TV owner, and TouchPad owner here.

As far as I can tell, there's nothing obviously connected to the UI experience of the TV and the TouchPad.

The TV is a lot more locked down and filled with ads, but still snappy. Sideloading IPK's is limited. I would love to neuter all the ads and auto-updates, that's my main gripe.

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cogman10 6 days ago

I don't remember the touchpad performance being all that bad for the time. Was pretty snappy IIRC.
My LG TV, on the other hand, definitely struggles particularly running apps. That might just be due to the age of the tv.

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- Shog9 6 days ago
  
  My observation, after using LG TVs at countless hotels (occasionally internet-connected), AirBnBs (usually internet connected) and at home (never internet-connected) is that even in quite old TVs the UI is blazing fast until you connect it to the 'Net. At that point... It spends a painful amount of time waiting on requests with no visible feedback and the whole UI starts to chug, with some apps becoming almost unusable until the thing has been on for long enough for all the background stuff to finish.
  Granted... If they aren't 'Net-connected, most "apps" aren't of much use. But, fast access to settings and inputs is sorta nice too.
  
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IshKebab 6 days ago

> but still snappy
It's about the least snappy thing I've ever used, apart from cheap Android tablets (we made the mistake of buying an Amazon Fire Kids tablet which is the only device I've ever used that was literally unusably slow).
I even bought the higher spec version of the TV because apparently the cheaper version is even slower. Great image quality but I'll definitely never buy another LG TV again.

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- RajT88 6 days ago
  
  I have no explanation of what's going on with your touchpad. They really only had one model with different storage options. I guess I'd speculate there's something wrong with it.
  As far as the TV, here's my model number:
  OLED77C2AUA
  No complaints about performance ever from me or my wife. Just the ads and software/features I don't care about. (No I do not want to update... Stop asking, I have auto-update disabled for a reason)
  
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biorach 6 days ago

> Yeah but that's because they cut the price to to 1/4 of it's price!! They were offloading unsold stock at huge cost.

That's not necessarily a bad business strategy... Sometimes you take an initial loss by underpricing a product in order to build market share.

I believe MS took a substantial hit on the XBox for _years_

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xeromal 6 days ago

I'm pretty sure I bought one for 99$ but I can't remember if that was directly from HP. I LOVED that thign

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