Comment by naikrovek

You're bringing up the question of "what is a fair tax rate," which is reasonable.

The questions of this legislation, though, are different:

Should we incentivize companies to hire corporate executives instead of engineers?

Should we favor trillion dollar companies over startups? (It is much cheaper for Amazon to loan money to the government than three people starting a new venture from scratch, so this favors concentration.)

If you agree that we should discourage hiring engineers in favor of management, that concentration is good, and that low corporate tax rates are good, then this legislation is perfect.

I say that it's good if you believe in low corporate tax rates because this legislation was passed to pay for overall corporate tax cuts, which primarily benefits the largest companies. Amazon actually pays $11.3 billion in income taxes a year (not zero), so on net, even though they have a lot of software engineers, they benefit from this legislation, because they effectively traded having to float money to the government in exchange for lower tax rates.

Big companies care about tax rates more than liquidity, because their borrowing rates are cheap, whereas small companies care more about liquidity (they effectively cannot borrow, or it is very expensive) and their profits are low. So this effectively subsidizes big companies at the cost of small companies.

That's not really the issue (and I say this as a socialist). The issue is that it's a weak and very leaky definition that attempts to redefine anyone that touches "software development" away from being taxed like employees into being taxed like machines that produce assets at the same value as their cost of operating.

This punishes small businesses and new businesses more than any large org because it massively increases the cost of operating for the first few years.

And importantly it just doesn't do so consistently.

Orgs should have a higher tax burden. This just doesn't do that, instead this is punishing orgs for trying to do new things and rewarding existing momentum (i.e. the large corporations that already have a profitable revenue stream and a long trail of employment history).

I agree Amazon should pay taxes. But this bill is not the way to make such companies pay taxes. It will kill competition and startups along the way. That is the crux of the issue.

Edit: Looks like Amazon did indeed pay 15B+ federal taxes in 2024 (excluding sales tax etc)

I haven't looked at the tax rule in detail, but it looks like the "half year convention" for amortization applies.

The "half year convention" means that when you amortize a purchase, it's assumed you purchased it exactly halfway through the year, so you can only deduct half the amortization in the first year that you would normally (and the other half is in the year after the depreciation period).

So it looks like

year 1: 1/10

year 2: 1/5 + 1/10

year 3: 1/5 + 1/5 + 1/10

year 4: 1/5 + 1/5 + 1/5 + 1/10

year 5: 1/5 + 1/5 + 1/5 + 1/5 + 1/10

year 6: 1/5 + 1/5 + 1/5 + 1/5 + 1/5 (the last 1/5 being the other half from year 1 and the 1/10 from year 6).

modulo accounting shenanigans company like amazon is ~ unaffected by this rule since its capable of amortizing salaries anyways

Even if Amazon pays no corporate income tax (only one category out of many), they pay much more in taxes per year than you would in several lifetimes.

The phrase “fair share” is political, which is to say meaningless. The people who have earnestly invoked this phrase in my experience have resisted requests to define the term and have sometimes launched personal attacks for daring to raise the question. Will you break this streak? What in concrete terms is Amazon’s fair share? Your fair share? If they differ materially, why?

I’m a capitalist and therefore wish zero ill toward you. Cronyists, authoritarians, and collectivists may want to abuse you, and that is a contemptible way to treat one’s fellow humans. Both parties to a free exchange benefit. Both sides can win because it is not a zero-sum game. As a matter of fact, you are advocating for a game that your side cannot possibly win. Consider that Amazon has enormous incentive to hire the very tippy-top best accountants and tax attorneys to find every crack in the tax code that middling staffers and nepo hires can barely scribble. It does create some benefit to society in the form of the incomes that these highly paid tax pros generate, the comforts it affords them, and the downstream jobs demand for those comforts creates. But in the big picture, it’s adversarial rather than constructive. Certainly we can come up with a more peaceful and constructive arrangement.

Just to give you some perspective...this comment:

> I'm sure the capitalists among you will want me dead for saying this, but: pay your fair share.

Is the equivalent of a finance person saying to a developer "can't you just hire more developers and we can build our product faster". In other words, it's not that simple.

> what is the corporate tax rate?

21%

> It's not 100%, so you're deducting a fraction developer's salary from your income, right, you're not saving that much on your tax bill each year. you're paying tax on the income you used to pay the developer.

Which is a problem if you don’t have the money to pay the tax.

Let’s combine your and the parent’s examples: 1 principal engineer @ $300,000/year; 3 engineers @ $200,000/year = $900,000/year. $1,000,000 in sales.

year 1: Company makes $1,000,000 and pays $900,000 to engineers for a $100,000 cash profit; it deducts $180,000 from $1,000,000 for a $820,000 paper profit, and owes $172,200 in taxes. Since $172,000 > $100,000, it has a $72,000 cash loss for the year. There is not year 2.

Or maybe it raises enough capital to have a cash cushion. A similar thing happens in year 2: it makes $1,000,000 and pays $900,000 to the engineers for a $100,000 annual cash profit, deducts $360,000 from $1,000,000 for a $640,000 paper profit and owes $134,400 in taxes, still more than the cash profit. The cumulative cash losses are now $106,400.

Once again in year 3 it makes $1,000,000 and pays $900,000 to the engineers for a $100,000 annual cash profit, deducts $540,000 from $1,000,000 for a $460,000 paper profit and owes $96,600 in taxes. Hey, it doesn’t owe more than it made in taxes! On the other hand, its cumulative cash losses are now $103,000. Three years, three million in revenue, 2.7 million in expenses but it’s in the hole by $103,000, still more than its annual profit.

In year 4 it makes $1,000,000 and pays $900,000 to the engineers for a $100,000 annual cash profit, deducts $720,000 from $1,000,000 for a $280,000 paper profit and a $58,800 tax bill. It still has a cumulative $61,800 cash loss.

In year 5 it makes $1,000,000 and pays $900,000 for a $100,000 annual cash profit, deducts $900,000 from $1,000,000 for a $100,000 paper profit and a $21,000 tax bill. Good news, the company now has a cumulative cash gain! At the end of five years and $5,000,000 in sales the capital owners have made … $17,200. The engineers made $4,500,000 and the government made $483,000.

In year 6 it makes $1,000,000 and pays nothing (this is very unrealistic, because in the real world every product requires maintenance …) for a $1,000,000 cash profit, deducts $720,000 from $1,000,000 for a $280,000 paper profit and a $58,800 tax bill. People complain that it’s only paying a 5.88% tax rate, ignoring the years of amortised losses. But hey, after $6,000,000 in sales the owners finally have $958,400. They take it as a dividend and it gets taxed at the top marginal rate, so they pay an additional $354,608 in taxes.

In the real world, of course, sales may or may not cover salaries, sales may increase or decrease from year to year, markets may change and so forth.

> I don't care what the law says, pay enough that no one can say that you're a lamprey on society, please.

That’s an impossible target. Any random person can say, unreasonably, that someone else is a ‘lamprey on society.’

> I'm sure the capitalists among you will want me dead for saying this, but: pay your fair share. I don't care what the law says, pay enough that no one can say that you're a lamprey on society, please.

They’re gonna lobby to get as low taxes as they can. Why would they do anything else? That people think they are “lamprey” is (or would be) a minuscule problem in a country like America.