Comment by Tomte

Comment by Tomte 18 hours ago

20 replies

Learning the fundamentals.

Germany puts all aspiring naval officers through a tour on the Gorch Fock.

It‘s kot just culture, although those ships also serve as excellent ambassadors to far-flung countries.

murderfs 17 hours ago

Yeah, well, if you've invested 135 million euros into repairing a sailboat, you might as well put it to use...

raverbashing 18 hours ago

I suppose "not hitting bridges" is part of the fundamentals

But it's really curious how it seems those collisions have been becoming more frequent (or only our awareness of it?)

Another alternative is "the sort" working better than ever which means that maritime employment in some places does not attract the best professionals

  • crooked-v 18 hours ago

    With the case of the US Navy and the well-publicized collisions with civilian vessels, it's happening more because the organization is trying to run more ships and more constant operations with fewer people than are actually required.

    And that's on top of scheduling practices that are fundamentally negligent and dysfunctional to start with, like watch standers (whose job is to watch for and react to dangers to the ship) trying to perform duty shifts on 4 hours of sleep a night for months at a time.

    • hulitu 18 hours ago

      > because the organization is trying to run more ships and more constant operations with fewer people than are actually required

      Greed and AI will replace all workers. /s

  • defrost 18 hours ago

    To be fair "can this ship clear this bridge given it's height, the time of day, the general broad area tidal conditions and the specific hyper local variations" is fundemental but far from basic.

    It also raises a question as to whether the fault lies with the ship crew or with a local pilot who had local control of the ship.

    • usrusr 17 hours ago

      On the videos the ship is drifting backwards, from wind and/or currents (are currents the East River dominated by tides?). I don't think that they ever intended to clear the bridge. The fundamental they missed was keeping their maneuvering engine up and running (or calling in some tugs).

      • a2tech 14 hours ago

        If you watch the video you can see tugs moving the boat. Current speculation is that the tugs/harbor captain messed up and the ship got away from them in the tide and drifted backwards into the bridge.

        • Polizeiposaune 13 hours ago

          Tugs were nearby; one had helped it back away from the pier it had been docked at, but none were hooked up at the time of the collision.

          Sal Mercogliano — a maritime historian at Campbell University - saw indications that the ship's engine may have been stuck in reverse.

          See video edited from his livestream here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2p9bYfFhHE

      • detourdog 17 hours ago

        Yes, the East river and the Hudson are both tidal estuaries. The tide has a big effect on water flow direction. I'm an in-experienced sailor but I was surprised they left with the water flowing against them.

        • sklargh 14 hours ago

          Had similar thoughts. Hell Gate is no joke.

      • defrost 16 hours ago

        Damn.

        My bad for getting the full details .. I came to this story via a chain of bridge clearance fail stories and jumped to the assumption this was another intended passage clearance mistake.

        There are some knuckle chewing engineering videos of planned water transits of "big loads" timed happen for a still water king low tide .. fast work with tiny clearances and major downsides on failure.

    • krisoft 17 hours ago

      It is not a case of not knowing that the bridge is too low. It is a case of not being able to avoid it and being pushed into it by winds and waves. Reportedly something went wrong with their engine.

nickysielicki 18 hours ago

The fundamentals have obviously changed. At no point in any serious engagement will it ever be important to have experience with sailing. This ship should have been dry docked and turned into a museum years ago. Two people are dead.

  • shakow 18 hours ago

    That sail-trained sailors make better sailors than engine-trained sailors is similar to how glider-trained pilots make better pilots after transition than engine-trained pilots. They typically acquired a better understanding of the medium they're evolving in, giving them a deeper understanding of the dynamic situation of their craft.

    • nottorp 18 hours ago

      Same for being aware of the lower abstraction layers down to machine code when you're programming in a high level language.

  • loloquwowndueo 12 hours ago

    There’s a lot more to seamanship and crewmanship than propulsion methods. Cuauhtemoc is a training ship designed to teach that, not primarily how to work sails. Also it was built in 1982 so I fail to see how it should be a museum ship since it’s not that old or historic.

  • achierius 18 hours ago

    This incident could have happened regardless of the type of ship. Unless you have some reason to believe otherwise, I'd suggest against saying so.

  • ceejayoz 18 hours ago

    The fundamentals include things like teamwork and following orders. You can learn those on a sailing ship just fine.

    • bombcar 15 hours ago

      You learn them better. A big ship can run just fine with a few people; heck, it's probably possible to run with just one if we admit it.

      Big sailing ships don't work like that, you can't furl a sail without intense physical cooperation and teamwork.