Comment by HideousKojima

Comment by HideousKojima 3 months ago

28 replies

>Americans are just very obstinate about those things.

It's not just obstinance, switching everything to metric in the US would likely cost billions (if not trillions) of dollars. And other countries that have made the switch have often ended up with weird Frankensystems of measurement, like the UK where they mix metric and imperial all the time (plus the weird UK-specific measurements they have like "stone", which is based on the pound).

int_19h 3 months ago

Every single country in the world that is on metric today had to switch from something else at some point in the past. Why overfocus so much on UK when you have literally a hundred successful examples?

One does have to wonder what it is about Anglo countries specifically that makes it so difficult for them, though. Well, Canada at least has the excuse of being next door to US, with the resulting economic effects. For UK I'm pretty sure it's just about not being like "the Continent" at this point.

  • HideousKojima 3 months ago

    >Every single country in the world that is on metric today had to switch from something else at some point in the past. Why overfocus so much on UK when you have literally a hundred successful examples?

    A huge percentage of those countries didn't have established industrial bases, infrastructure, etc. And also no educated general populace that needed reeducating. And often those countries were effectively forced into adopting metric through colonization and/or invasion.

    • int_19h 3 months ago

      Even then, that still leaves most of Europe.

      • HideousKojima 3 months ago

        Most of whom made the switch in the 1800s, prior to widespread industrialization

andyferris 3 months ago

Other countries switched. Short term pain for long term gain.

  • coldpie 3 months ago

    The trouble is there is just very little gain. It really just doesn't matter. All the systems are fine, they all work. If you come live here, you'll adjust after 2 years. If I moved to Europe, I would adjust in 2 years. Once in a blue moon you have to bother with converting units but c'est la vie. There's bigger things to worry about.

    • int_19h 3 months ago

      I've been living in US for 15 years now and I still can't remember which unit scales are factor-of-3 and which ones are factor-of-4. How many cups are there in a gallon? How many yards in a mile? I don't want to waste my brain cells on stuff like this, yet it comes up all the time in e.g. cooking, or using maps for navigation.

      • bigstrat2003 3 months ago

        Two cups to a pint, two pints to a quart, four quarts to a gallon. That makes sixteen cups to a gallon. There are 5280 feet in a mile, and three feet to a yard, so that makes 1760 yards to a mile (if I did the math correctly in my head just now).

        These are conversions I know off the top of my head, I didn't need to look them up. Which is the point the GP was making: it's not hard to memorize the handful of conversions you will encounter in everyday life. Most people living here did it as children and have never had to think about it since. That's why there's no actual gain for us to switch to metric units. On the other hand there would be quite a bit of pain as everyone had to adjust to estimating things in kilos vs pounds, grams vs cups (in recipes), and so on. So for the typical American, it is actually a net negative for the country to switch to the metric system. It isn't just stubbornness.

      • coldpie 3 months ago

        Yeah, every system has pros & cons. I think the lack of an approximately-one-foot (30 cm) unit in metric is clumsy to work around, and I think degrees-C are too wide. We can argue about the details if you find it fun ("yards in a mile" does not come up all the time), but they're all evolved from hundreds of years of usage, and that means they all work fine at the end of the day.

    • lproven 3 months ago

      > All the systems are fine

      This is not true and that's trivially verifiable.

      No calculator, no references, no Google:

      How many inches are in 5 and three-quarter miles?

      How much does 5 & 3/4 gallons of water weigh?

      • coldpie 3 months ago

        In what scenarios would I need to know the answers to those questions?

        • lproven 3 months ago

          That's not the point.

          The point is that it is easy to interconvert units in the metric system: they're all interrelated and all of them can be expressed in terms of other units.

          A litre is the volume of a cube that is 10x10x10cm. A cubic cm of water weighs a gram. Therefore, 10 cubic cm of water weighs 1kg. In other words, a kilo is the weight of a litre of water.

          It takes 1 calorie of energy to heat 1g of water by 1ºC. So to heat a litre by one degree takes 1000 calories, or 1 kilocalorie. To boil it, you need to raise its temperature to 100 degrees, because that's the boiling point of water. From room temperature of say 20º that means

          100-20 = 80 80 x 1000 = 80,000 80 kcal

          This is useful. You can work out how much energy you need, using a pencil and paper.

          This makes it easy to convert. Units that are easier to convert are more useful.

          Whereas, as Josh Bazell put it:

          « Whereas in the American system, the answer to ‘How much energy does it take to boil a room-temperature gallon of water?’ is ‘Go fuck yourself,’ because you can’t directly relate any of those quantities. »

          That's stupid. They can easily be related, but the people who devised this batshit set of scaled random numbers a few centuries ago didn't think of it.

          It's not "what you're used to is better".

          It's "one system is easier to work with than the other, and lets you do things the other system does not permit you to do."

          Metric is objectively, demonstrably better than imperial.

          And the common response of "oh but my system is what people feel" is also total bullshit, because that is 100% what you're used to.

          A warmish day is feels like 20º to me. A hot day feels like 30º. A burning can't think straight day is 40º. Below freezing is below zero: it's simple and intuitive.

    • Spooky23 3 months ago

      If you’re not the biggest, it matters alot.

  • HideousKojima 3 months ago

    >Other countries switched.

    Except they didn't actually, see my points about the UK (similar points apply to Canada).

graemep 3 months ago

It is a weird mix in the UK, distances are measured in miles, and speed limits are set in miles per hour, but fuel is sold in litres, for example.

People get very worked up about it too. People got very worked up about a government proposal to allow people to put imperial units on food in larger type than metric (at the moment it has to be metric larger - or at least the same size).

Everything in engineering and science has been entirely metric since the 80s.

  • mrob 3 months ago

    Distances in the UK are measured in miles and yards (or fractions of a mile). Google Maps gets this wrong and uses miles and feet. I don't think many people in the UK have a good intuition for how far 500ft is.

    • tialaramex 3 months ago

      Only road distances for cars are in miles and yards. The British railways continue to use chains (which are not used for any other ordinary activity) and non-road traffic is often in metres or kilometres as appropriate.

      Some of those "Metric martyr" types, the kind of people who think anything which changed after they were 35 is an abomination, but somehow anything which changed ten years before they were born has never been any other way, will vandalize legal stuff which uses (in their opinion) the wrong units. So if you put a (legal and reasonable) 1.5km distance sign on a cycle route, but some car driver who thinks sane units are fascism sees it, they might smash it to pieces which is annoying.

      There has been a very gradual lean towards sanity, after all my mother was taught decimal currency because it was forthcoming when she was at school, her parents had used a non-decimal currency system. When I was a teenager I still had coins which, though they were treated as their modern decimal value, if you read their faces had a non-decimal value printed on them, because it's too expensive to replace the currency when you switch.

      When I was a child I would buy a quarter pound of sweets. At the turn of the century I'd ask for, and receive, 100 grams or 200 grams as I felt, but most customers would use pounds (although legally they'd be served in grams). These days everybody else would likely also ask in grams. So it's changing, it's just very slow.

    • int_19h 3 months ago

      The whole yard vs feet thing is especially weird. Indeed, in US as well, feet are normally used to measure sizes - at scales where it's reasonable - while yards are normally used to measure distances. Even though the two units are in the same ballpark / order of magnitude. And yes, as you rightly point out, it means that few people can estimate distances in feet.

      OTOH on road sings, US at least seems to be using miles alone consistently, so you end up with labels like "1 3/4 miles" every now and then, which I find to be difficult to parse quickly.

    • graemep 3 months ago

      TomTom Amigo uses miles and yards. I think OSMAnd does too.

      I tend to think in metres at that scale but a yard is near enough.

thesuitonym 3 months ago

Also, switching everything to metric is just not necessary. We already use the metric system all the time. We also use imperial.

  • int_19h 3 months ago

    Yes, so you have all the disadvantages and none of the advantages.

    And sure, of course metric isn't necessary. You can also write all software in COBOL and PL/I. But over the long term, the convenience of having a self-consistent system based on a few simple principles rather than historical precedent adds up.

pasc1878 3 months ago

For the UK in practice it is only distance measurements that are non metric now. For some things like small liquid amounts we colloquially use imperial - pints - which differ from US pints. I think the actual official volume is the metric it is just you could say slang that keeps to pints.

Anything to do with STEM is metric.

  • tialaramex 3 months ago

    If you buy beer "loose" like at a bar it has to be sold in pints. Most people will have seen a "half" and anybody who likes stronger beers or goes to festivals where you taste different ones will know a "third" of a pint is also a legal amount of beer to sell. You would not want to try out a few different 8% stouts if they were sold only in whole pints, unless they're going to make it a multi-day event and provide somewhere for you to sleep it off.

    Milk is also allowed to be sold in pints, traditionally glass bottle re-usable milk bottles were one pint.

    It is also usual (but not legal) to sell a pint or a half of various soft drinks, in theory you should be sold these in some other way, I always say "large" or "small" but in practice ordinary people say "pint" and after all the staff will probably more or less fill a pint glass so, whatever.

    Spirits (e.g. gin) are measured in either 25ml or 35ml shots. An establishment can choose either, post which one they picked and use that consistently. Why two seemingly unrelated sizes? Well, historically there were two different non-metric sizes permitted in law, and when the government legislated to make these SI units there were lobbyists demanding they allow this to continue despite the opportunity to rationalize.

    As in the US, containers you purchase in a store are labelled, but here the labels must prominently show SI volume units and EU-style value metrics are required on shelf markings, so e.g. 10p per 100ml of Coke is a good price, maybe the Pepsi is on a deal for 9.5p per 100ml, the store's terrible own brand is 5p per 100ml. This EU strategy prevents people screwing with sizes to make you think you're getting a better deal, that cheaper bottle may look like a good idea but hey, it's 18p per 100ml, ah, it's slimmer in the middle which makes it actually much smaller than it looks.

ascorbic 3 months ago

The UK uses metric for almost everything. Miles/mph for driving and pints in the pub are the only things that are always non-metric. Human height and weight are the only other thing that is often non-metric, and even then a lot of people will know their weight in kg rather than stone.