Comment by jfengel

Comment by jfengel 20 hours ago

10 replies

Weirdly, right at the moment the US economy is tanking because of severe departures from market fundamentalism. By the people who most claim to be pro capitalism.

piva00 20 hours ago

There's no departure from market fundamentalism, the belief in shareholder value being supreme is still very much the current Zeitgeist.

As much as the USA's administration is jerking around with trade, the fundamental principle of what governs any corporation is still market fundamentalism: returning value to shareholders, nothing else.

  • jfengel 19 hours ago

    Shareholders are pretty grumpy right now. They've lost a ton of money.

    I'm sure that some economist will asset that this will produce more shareholder value in the long run. But the stock market suggests that shareholders do not currently believe that.

    • immibis 19 hours ago

      We might have just exited from the era where shareholders mattered.

  • immibis 20 hours ago

    Capitalism is incompatible with free markets. Capitalism means all the wealth goes to those with the most capital, while free markets means the wealth flows freely in all directions.

    • Jensson 19 hours ago

      > Capitalism means all the wealth goes to those with the most capital, while free markets means the wealth flows freely in all directions

      I don't understand this distinction, why wouldn't capital accumulate under free markets? The freer the market the more capital accumulates.

      In a freer market that today you would have to pay a massive toll every time you went to the grocery store, because the road owner has monopoly on that route, that would lead to much more wealth accumulation.

      • ZeroGravitas 19 hours ago

        In economics perfect markets mean that your company that raises spherical cows has no moat against others doing the same. If you do something to gain profits to become rich someone else joins the market to compete those profits down to zero. This reduces inefficiency and makes everyone rich.

        Deregulation is sold as getting closer to this, in reality it means the money collects wherever the market breaks down, monopolies, network effects, externalities, concentrated special interests, middlemen, oligarchies, gangsters, landlords etc.

      • jfengel 19 hours ago

        When all of the capital ends up in a small number of hands, the market ceases.

        Each capitalist tries to corner the market, but if they succeed, the resulting monopoly isn't a free market. In theory a competitor arises, but it takes only an instant to shut it down and restore the monopoly.

      • krapp 19 hours ago

        >I don't understand this distinction, why wouldn't capital accumulate under free markets?

        It would, which is why businesses support deregulation - not because they believe in vigorous competition for the sake of consumers, but because they want as little friction and consequence standing between themselves and oligarchy as possible.

        A market in which the wealth "flows freely in all directions" is socialist, not capitalist. "Fair" markets are regulated, and by definition not free.

    • [removed] 19 hours ago
      [deleted]
    • piva00 19 hours ago

      To me that is the biggest win in public discourse from capitalists: conflating markets with capitalism, as if free markets could only exist under unbounded capitalism. Which, as you say, is incompatible. Capitalism does not want free markets, nor foster free markets, the best end result for a capitalist is the abolition of a market under the control of a monopoly.

      Markets are fundamental, and a natural result of human socioeconomic order. Capitalism not at all.