Comment by clbrmbr

Comment by clbrmbr 3 months ago

I have actually had some really great flow evenings lately, the likes of which I have not enjoyed in many years, precisely because of AI-assisted coding. The trick is to break the task down in to components that are of moderate complexity so that the AI can handle them (Gemini 2.5 Pro one-shots), and keep your mind on the high-level design which today's AI cannot coordinate.

What helps me is to think of it like I'm a kid again, learning to code full of ideas but without any pre-conceived notions. Rather than the Microsoft QuickBasic manual in my hands, I've got Gemini & Claude Code. I would be gleefully coding up a storm of games, websites, dubious webcrawlers, robots, and lord knows what else. Plenty of flow to be had.

wolvesechoes 3 months ago

I always wonder what kind of projects are we talking about. I am currently writing a compiler and simulation engine for differential-algebraic equations. I tried few models, hoping they would help me, but they could not provide any help with small details nor with bigger building blocks.

I guess if you code stuff that had been coded a lot in public repos, it is fine, otherwise AI does not help in any way. Actually, I think I wasted more time trying to make it produce the output I wish for than it took me to do this myself.

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Espressosaurus 3 months ago

That's been my experience. If it's been solved a million times, it's helpful. If you're out on the frontier where there's no public code, it's worse than useless.
If you're somewhere in between (where I am now) it's situationally useful for small sub-components but you need to filter it heavily or you'll end up wasting a day or two going down a wrong rabbit-hole either because you don't know the domain well enough to tell when it's bullshitting or going down a wrong path, or don't know the domain well enough to use the right keyword to get it to cough up something useful. I've found domain knowledge essential for deciding when it's doing something obviously wrong instead of saying "I don't know" or "This is the wrong approach to the problem".
For the correct self-contained class or block of code, it is much faster to specify the requirements and go through a round or two of refinement than it is to write it myself. For the wrong block of code it's a complete waste of time. I've experienced both in the last few days.

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- uludag 3 months ago
  
  I don't even think you have to be on the frontier for LLMs to lose most of their effectiveness. Large legacy codebases with deeply ingrained tribal knowledge and loads of idiosyncrasies and inconsistencies will do the trick. Sad how most software projects end in this state.
  Obviously LLMs in this situation will still be insanely helpful, but in the same way that Google searches or stack overflow is insanely helpful.
  
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91bananas 3 months ago

For me it's been toy games built on web languages, which happens to be something I toyed with via my actual raw skills for the past 15 years. LLMs have opened many new doors and options for what I can build because I now technically "know everything" in the world via LLMs. Stuff that I would get stuck wasting hours on is now solved in minutes. But then it ALWAYS reaches a point where the complexity the LLM has generated is too much and the model can no longer iterate on what it's built.

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kelsey978126 3 months ago

people seem to forget this type of argument from the article was used for stack overflow for years, calling it the destruction of programming. "How can you get into flow when you are just copying and pasting?". Those same people are now all sour grapes for AI assisted development. There will always be detractors saying that the documentation you are using is wrong, the tools that you are using are wrong, and the methodology you are using is wrong.

AI assisted development is no different from managing an engineering team. "How can you trust outsourced developers to do anything right? You won't understand the code when it breaks"... "How can you use an IDE, vim is the only correct tool" etc etc etc.

Nothing has changed besides the process. When people started jumping on object orientation they called procedures the devil itself, just as procedures were once called structured programming and came to banish away the considered harmful goto. Everything is considered harmful when theres something new around the corner that promises to either make development more productive or developers more interchangeable. These are institutional requirements and will never go away.

Embrace AIOP (AI oriented programming) to banish copy and paste google driven development which is now considered harmful.

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halfmatthalfcat 3 months ago

The issue with "AIOP" is that you don't have a litany of others (as is the case with SO) providing counter examples, opinions, updated best practices, etc. People take the AI output as gospel and suffer for it without being exposed so the ambiguity that surrounds implementing things.

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randcraw 3 months ago

Will an engineering team ever be able to craft a thing of wonder, that surprises and delights? I think great software can do that. But I've seen it arise only rarely, and almost always as originating from one enlightened mind, someone who imagined a better way than the well-trod paths taken by so many who went before. I can imagine AI as a means to go only 'where man gas gone before'.

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Workaccount2 3 months ago

I'm a classic engineer, so lots of experience with systems and breaking down problems, but probably <150 hours programming experience over 15 years. I know how computers work and "think", but I an awful at communicating with them. Anytime I have needed to program something I gotta crash course the language for a few days.

Having LLMs like 2.5 now are total game changers. I can basically flow chart a program and have Gemini manifest it. I can break up the program into modules and keep spinning up new instances when context gets too full.

The program I am currently working on is up to ~5500 LOC, probably across 10ish 2.5 instances. It's basically an inventory and BOM management program that takes in bloated excel BOMs and inventory, and puts it in an SQLite database, and has a nice GUI. Absolutely insane how much faster SQLite is for databases than excel, lol.

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e40 3 months ago

I've heard a _lot_ of stories like this. What I haven't heard is stories about the deployment of said applications and the ability of the human-side author to maintain the application. I guess that's because we're in early days for LLM coding, or the people who did this aren't talking (about their presumed failures... people tend to talk about successes publicly, not the failures).

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- Workaccount2 3 months ago
  
  At my day job I have 3 programs written by LLM used in production. One written by GPT-4 (in spring 2023) and recently upgraded by gemini 2.5, and the other two by Claude 3.7
  One is a automatic electronics test system that runs tests and collects measurements (50k+ readings across 8-12 channels)(GPT-4, now with a GUI and faster DB thanks to 2.5). One is a QC tool to help quickly make QC reports in our companies standard form (3.7). And the last is a GUI CAD tool for rendering and quickly working through ancient manufacturing automation scripts from the 80's/90's to bring them up to compatibility with modern automation tooling (3.7).
  I personally think that there is a large gap between what programs are, and how each end user ultimately uses them. The programs are made with a vast scope, but often used narrowly by individuals. The proprietary CAD program that we were going to use originally for the old files was something like $12k/yr for a license. And it is a very powerful software package. But we just needed to do one relatively simple thing. So rather than buy the entire buffet, buy the entire restaurant, Claude was able to just make simple burger.
  Would I put my name on these and sell to other companies? No. Am I confident other LLM junkies could generate similar strongly positive outcomes with bespoke narrow scope programs? Absolutely.
  
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dgs_sgd 3 months ago

Only 150 hours of programming in 15 years? Are you in more of an Architect / Tech Lead role than an IC (individual contributor) role?

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- Workaccount2 3 months ago
  
  I'm an electrical engineer and work mostly with power electronics.
  
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melvinroest 3 months ago

This is the way. I feel like a kid too again. It's way more fun actually. As a kid I got too frustrated for not being able to install my WAMP stack.

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sebstefan 3 months ago

Added joy for me as well mostly by giving me the relevant API calls I need straight away, from publically available documentation, instead of having to read docs myself. "How do I do X in Y"

And if something's not obvious I can always fetch the specifics of any particular calls. But at least I didn't have to find the name of that call in the first place.

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cushychicken 3 months ago

I’m right there with you on this.

Thanks for the comment. You articulated how I feel about this situation very well.

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