Comment by Nevermark

Comment by Nevermark 2 days ago

3 replies

> Slave wages? Like the wages for a factory worker in 1918[1]? $1300 after adjusting for inflation.

I think they were using “slave wages” as a non-literal relative term to the era.

As you did.

A hundred years before your example, the “slave wages” were actually slave wages.

I think it’s fair to say a lot of gig workers, especially those with families, are having a very difficult time economically.

I expect gig jobs lower unemployment substantially, due to being convenient and easy to get, and potentially flexible with hours, but they lower average employment compensation.

smj-edison a day ago

> I think it’s fair to say a lot of gig workers, especially those with families, are having a very difficult time economically.

Great point. I wonder if this has to do with the current housing crisis and cost of utilities... Food has never been more affordable, in fact free with food banks and soup kitchens. But (IMHO) onerous zoning has really slowed down development and driven up prices.

Another cost is it's pretty much impossible to do anything without a smartphone and internet. I suppose libraries have free internet, but being able to get to said library is another issue.

And like you said, contract work trades flexibility for benefits, and that gets exploited by these companies.

I guess it just sucks sometimes because these issues are super hairy (shut down Uber, great, now you've just put everyone out of a job). "For every complex problem there is a solution which is clear, simple, and wrong."

  • ToucanLoucan 20 hours ago

    I suspect it has to do with a lot of things:

    * Everything is more expensive. You say "food has never been more affordable" but I'll absolutely challenge that. Food banks and kitchens are heavily locale-dependent type resources, and are not distributed according to the needs of the populace, but rather according to the ability and willingness of given communities to sustain them.

    * You skated right past the need for a smartphone, mentioning, then going on to cite libraries for some reason. This is just a non-solution to a gig worker who will receive jobs and report their status/completion via a smartphone while on the go, doing the work. Ergo to even begin gig work, one REQUIRES a smart phone WITH a data plan.

    * And, again, the pay is shit. In my relatively wealthy area, a good Uber Eats driver can make about $13 to $16 an hour, which on it's face sounds okay for a job that requires basic smartphone literacy and a driver's license. But just think about that. For starters, more than half statistically is tips, which aren't guaranteed and are based on performance. A performance, mind, that is subject to dozens of factors entirely outside the control of the driver. Further, it requires the use of the driver's personal vehicle (or one they have access to anyway) which costs obviously fuel, but traveling so many miles so fast will also mean more frequent oil changes, more replacement parts, not to mention a STEEP increase in the odds of bodily injury on the part of the driver, and NONE of this is being handled by Uber. All of these costs and risks are being felt by the driver.

    And that still leaves tons of expenses on the table: insurance for the vehicle, many drivers want to run multiple apps which can require the use of multiple phones and therefore multiple data plans, they need to keep their vehicles clean and tidy for cargo or even passengers, they need to be available at the peak times for orders in order to make any money at all, and even if they do ALL OF THAT right... they are not guaranteed any wage, at all. If they simply don't get orders, or refuse too many and have the systems shadowban them, or simply aren't in the right place, their entire "shift" as it were can be a net loss for them.

    > I guess it just sucks sometimes because these issues are super hairy (shut down Uber, great, now you've just put everyone out of a job). "For every complex problem there is a solution which is clear, simple, and wrong."

    The solution is I think quite simple here: Uber (and all the rest of these gig apps to be clear) should be paying these people a wage, and the people should be driving cars in a fleet owned by Uber. You know, like Taxi companies did. Taxi drivers made tips, sure, occasionally, but they were hourly employees like any other. If they got in a car accident, the company was insured for that, both for the car and the worker. The employees enjoyed at least some benefits, didn't need to maintain or clean their own cars, certainly didn't need to buy the cars, and showed up to a place, on a schedule, and did a job. Like was normal before the "gig economy."

    • smj-edison 4 hours ago

      I'm really struggling to understand your argument, are you trying to argue in short-term or long-term trends? I'm trying to argue that in aggregate, life is getting better for people, while also awknowledging that there's not an equal distribution. For example, food has decreased in price 4x since 1900 in real terms[1]. I don't see how that's not more affordable.

      > You skated right past the need for a smartphone.

      Hmm? Like when I said "Another cost is it's pretty much impossible to do anything without a smartphone and internet"?

      > a good Uber Eats driver can make about $13 to $16 an hour

      Source? That doesn't line up with what I found.

      > A performance, mind, that is subject to dozens of factors entirely outside the control of the driver.

      This is just FUD if you haven't cited your sources on average/median/distribution of pay in whatever area.

      You have a very good point on liability issues though.

      > The solution is I think quite simple here

      Thus increasing prices of rides, causing users to stop using the service, further shrinking pay? Uber just started being profitable after dumping billions of dollars in subsidies, on top of bad pay. If you make them full-time employees, you may just shut off the one source of income they have.

      Uber won because they offered a superior service to taxis. I'm not going to open the can of worms of their predatory behavior, but there was still a significant part that was a better service.

      Again, I am planning on helping these people, I think they should be helped, but you really need to think through what could happen if you force a company to become insolvent.

      [1] https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/long-term-prices-food?foc...