Comment by supermatt

Comment by supermatt 21 hours ago

24 replies

View on Hacker News

> they think they had no choice

And they really don't have a choice. if you don't abide by googles terms then they will not permit you to use google mobile services. That means (at the very least):

  - No "play" services (breaks lots of apps and 3rd party peripherals).
  - No app store (over 90% of apps are distributed solely through the play store. even major android players like samsung have tiny libraries in their own stores).
  - No youtube app (and no way to natively play without play services APIs, you NEED to use a crippled iframe embed in a webview!!!)
  - No push notifications (developers usually target the "built-in" option that is basically play services)
  - Missing apps and api-level integration with loads of other stuff, maps, mail, search, calendar, casting, etc
  - No widevine DRM (no hd/4k netflix, etc)
  - Loads of other insidious stuff I cant recall or articulate right now
You cant even use the word "Android" to describe the OS.

Just look at how crippled Amazons fork is. Or how huawei pretty much lost their entire GLOBAL market share because of a US sanction preventing them having a GMS contract.

No matter what anyone says, android IS google. It is so riddled with google specific behaviours you cant use without a license that companies have even ditched android to make their own OS - because they literally aren't allowed to favorably position their own functionality over googles in any way.

mvieira38 16 hours ago

The Play services thing is a major deal for banking apps and such. If anyone has tried dealing with third-party ROMs like LineageOS and GrapheneOS, they would know how much Google tries its best to screw you if you leave their gross leech of an ecosystem

Reply View 1 reply
  • ThePowerOfFuet 7 hours ago

    I have a Pixel with GrapheneOS and no Google anything installed, and bunq, N26, and SG apps all work flawlessly (but with no push notifications because no Google services, and I'm fine with that).

    Reply View 0 replies
gaiagraphia 18 hours ago

Big shout out to Google Play Integrity/Safety Net (or whatever it's currently called).

Was the one thing which ended my couple of years without Google, as my banking apps started banning my phones fingerprint for being insecure.

Seems like in a major part of '''Pax Americana''' is needing to use a Google or Apple fingerprint to participate in society. Makes you laugh when people whinge about China.

Reply View 7 replies
  • conradev 12 hours ago

    Attesting that a closed source device meets arbitrary closed source standards is a necessary evil.

    One real world problem is that some existing systems are built relying on the integrity of the components within, i.e. BART in the bay area relies on the BART cards being honest and secure. If iPhones are to be allowed into the system, they also have to be honest and secure.

    The capability is being over-used and abused, and we should design systems to never need it, but some do.

    Reply View 2 replies
    • ImPostingOnHN 10 hours ago

      > If iPhones are to be allowed into the system, they also have to be honest and secure.

      This describes a 1:1, total-trust relationship. There are other types of systems fulfilling the requirements without needing a 1:1, total-trust relationship.

      For example, the main requirements here are: The account succeeds at making requests it is allowed to make, and the account fails at making requests it is not allowed to make. Both those requirements can be fulfilled entirely server-side, and should be. Why require the client to be locked down?

      Reply View 1 reply
      • conradev 9 hours ago

        > Why require the client to be locked down?

        It is hard and likely expensive to require every single reader in every single city to be networked:

        > Because Clipper operates in multiple geographical areas with sporadic or non-existent internet access, the fare collection and verification technology needs to operate without any networking. To accomplish this, the Clipper card memory keeps track of balance on the card, fares paid, and trip history.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipper_card#Technology

        Reply View 0 replies
  • lenerdenator 11 hours ago

    Don't worry, Pax China will have you giving the fingerprint to Xiaomi and Huawei instead.

    Reply View 0 replies
  • zb3 14 hours ago

    In Europe, banking apps block root but still work on a custom OS (like LineageOS) without contactless payments. I guess this is because many people here buy Chinese phones and they just can't ignore them.

    Reply View 0 replies
  • ThePowerOfFuet 8 hours ago

    Have you tried on GrapheneOS?

    Also, what's stopping you from using your bank's website instead... or switching to a bank which sucks less?

    Reply View 1 reply
    • gaiagraphia 6 hours ago

      It just gets all so tiresome. And I don't really have enough money and free time to swap devices/banks when things get banned at random intervals.

      Just wanted to be left alone tbh ;/

      Reply View 0 replies
robertlagrant 17 hours ago

> Just look at how crippled Amazons fork is

What has Google done to stop Amazon here?

Reply View 12 replies
  • ForHackernews 16 hours ago

    ...literally all the things listed in the comment you're replying to.

    Reply View 11 replies
    • robertlagrant 16 hours ago

      But what stops Amazon from making these things? What's stopping them?

      Reply View 10 replies
      • mvieira38 16 hours ago

        Almost two decades of Google market dominance with Android, and Google's simultaneous ownership of the entire ecosystem, including the browser, search engine, cloud integration and the internal app store (which is integrated so far up the OS's ass you can't do much without it). You just can't enforce a monopoly like Google does and simply claim "why wouldn't the competitors and consumers just kneecap themselves to leave??"

        Reply View 0 replies
      • Daedren 15 hours ago

        You'd have to get every single app developer to implement an Amazon variant of Google Play Services alongside Google's.

        That's not going to happen, it's already a large problem in China.

        Reply View 0 replies
      • tapoxi 15 hours ago

        Play Services, and the Play Store. The network effect is so strong that competition becomes impossible. Nobody would buy a phone with a different AI provider because you couldn't use apps like Uber, and Uber wouldn't develop and publish to a different store and re-write their app to avoid Play Services to target a platform without any users.

        Reply View 0 replies
      • josefx 11 hours ago

        Why didn't Linux programmers just fork Windows or iOS?

        Reply View 0 replies
      • bolognafairy 16 hours ago

        You’re not being clever like you think you are. “They could simply build something else” is … something that truly everybody knows. That’s not the point.

        Reply View 2 replies
      • jillyboel 15 hours ago

        What's stopping you? Reflect on that and you'll have your answer.

        Reply View 2 replies