Comment by crazygringo

Some things are trivial and nearly free - created_at, updated_at. I don't think engineers need to bring trivialities like this to a "product owner". Own your craft.

This entirely depends on the company culture. I worked in teams where every small decision is in the hand of the PO and I've worked in teams where a software engineer is a respected professional enabled to make their own technical decisions. I found the second option to create higher quality software faster.

Also not sure what you mean by additional effort? Created_at, updated_at or soft-deletes are part of most proper frameworks. In Spring all you need is an annotation, I've been using those in major projects and implementation cost is around a few seconds with so far zero seconds of maintenance effort in years of development. At least those fields are solved problems.

> And all of this adds complexity, more things to go wrong.

This argument is one of the reason why a backend engineer could just add the created_at and updated_at fields without asking a product owner.

It doesn't make much sense from the pure product perspective, so the standard answer will be "no, let's add them when we have a real case they're needed". The product I'm inheriting right now misses these fields on half of the tables. Except when you really want the data, it won't be there as you're not going back in time.

Trying to convince someone that it's worth it will also give the impression they're optional, when you already decided you need them. So at the end of the day, it's your responsibility as an engineer to do what's required, without punting it to non technical stakeholders to push your back.

I also wouldn't ask a product manager if they think table schema should be orthogonal.

Now keeping or not IPs or user IDs in a table is a whole different story and requires a lot more consulting, and not just with the PO.

> don't do it as some half-built just-in-case "favor" to a future programmer who may very well have to rip it out.

in other words - YAGNI !

A product owner may (probably does not) have these things on their radar, it's up to a developer to inform them of industry best practices like these.

I've seen product owners who get blindsided every time by this sort of thing.

On the other hand, in some shops there is a dedicated DBA who is in charge of database schemas and possibly everything else. Before it became fashionable to create a "service layer" where people access the database (now database(s)) throw web endpoints, some organizations would put all the database access into a set of stored procedures managed by the DBA. Maybe that's extreme, but in the real world product owners come and go but the database is forever and deserves to have somebody speaking out for its interests.

In a good work environment you’ll have some telepathy with your product people and you wont have to communicate every minor change, which wastes time. Its similar to implementing a UI design — you and the designer will develop a relationship where you dont need to communicate every pixel, you fill in the blanks and show results, repeat.

Yes. Adding fields to a DB is not a risk-free thing a programmer should just do.

> And all of this adds complexity, more things to go wrong

That's a little vague given this specific example, which appears to be about maintaining some form of informative logging; though I don't think it necessarily needs to be in the form of an DB table.