Comment by Klonoar

Comment by Klonoar a month ago

Every single point that you want to try here has nothing to do with implementing a smooth scrolling, buttery UI/UX of a chat application. Please stop moving the goalposts if you want to actually discuss this.

I also frankly don't even get what you're trying to say with point 1, because Signal loads messages instantly for me on Desktop. There's zero delay. The UI/UX of the scrolling and chat display is the problem.

> what I've been reading from you is that the UI/UX is not impacted by the privacy, and this is obviously wrong

It is not obviously wrong, and you've done nothing but attempt to loop the conversation back to some level of privacy/encryption/etc. These things do not matter in this conversation, full stop.

This (my thread, not the greater thread we're in) is a design and frontend implementation discussion, not a privacy/security discussion. If that is not clear to you, I don't know what to say anymore.

palata a month ago

> This (my thread, not the greater thread we're in)

Well, you're answering to my thread, if we go like this. Where I said that one reason the UX is better in Telegram is that they don't care about privacy.

> Every single point that you want to try here has nothing to do with implementing a smooth scrolling, buttery UI/UX of a chat application.

Then we fundamentally disagree on what UX means. If it takes 2 days to receive a message because a human has to check that it is not spam, wouldn't you say that it's bad UX? Or is "scrolling" the only thing that you put into "UI/UX"? Do you actually know what UI/UX is?

> It is not obviously wrong, and you've done nothing but attempt to loop the conversation back to some level of privacy/encryption/etc.

Because that's my goddamn point from the beginning on. Privacy has an impact on UX (which means "user experience", by the way), period.

> If that is not clear to you, I don't know what to say anymore.

Same here. You don't seem to understand how privacy works technically, and you don't seem to understand what UI/UX means.

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Klonoar 22 days ago

> Well, you're answering to my thread, if we go like this.
Except we were not going like that, because my thread is tangential to yours, and is all I was discussing.
> Because that's my goddamn point from the beginning on. Privacy has an impact on UX (which means "user experience", by the way), period.
No, it has no impact on whether or not the frontend interface is implemented well. "Virtualized Listviews 101, or how to implement them well" is a course you might consider taking.
> Same here. You don't seem to understand how privacy works technically, and you don't seem to understand what UI/UX means.
I've been pretty transparent with the point of my comment chain, and I've more than enough time on the implementation end of both of these topics. I've asked you repeatedly to stop going off on tangents unrelated to my point (i.e, rendering/frontend UI/etc). If you don't want to do so, that's fine - I certainly can't make you. I just don't need to waste the time arguing with you either.
Have a good day man.

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maqp a month ago

>These things do not matter in this conversation

The largest UX hit is when launching a client after it's been powered off for a while.

Telegram uses a symmetric session key. The client can with SINGLE AES-IGE decryption operation decrypt a massive packet containing every message received to every non-secret chat.

Signal uses Diffie-Hellman ratchet or SCIMP ratchet for every received message. That means there's X25519 and AES-CBC involved for every message. It is not, and will never be as fast as Telegram's insecure approach.

Thus the security design will absolutely affect the smoothness of the experience.

But Signal has blazing fast search function since it's local only. Telegram's search functionality freezes when you go over the server's chat history cache limit, to try to find years old posts.

>The UI/UX of the scrolling and chat display is the problem.

My desktop computer loads messages from my Signal history as fast as I can scroll my mouse.

My cheap smart phone loads messages from my Signal history as fast as I can swipe my fingers.

You can solve this with faster hardware.

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Klonoar 22 days ago

> Signal uses Diffie-Hellman ratchet or SCIMP ratchet for every received message. That means there's X25519 and AES-CBC involved for every message. It is not, and will never be as fast as Telegram's insecure approach.
I'm aware.
That said, if Signal is able to render mostly fine in their current desktop app, then I've no reason to believe that the speed of decrypting messages is a blocker to optimizing the UI layer. Glossy-ness is a factor in why people still use shit like Telegram. Signal has no blocker to implementing it.
This has been my entire point for pretty much every comment in this chain.
> My desktop computer loads messages from my Signal history as fast as I can scroll my mouse. > My cheap smart phone loads messages from my Signal history as fast as I can swipe my fingers. > You can solve this with faster hardware.
Or they could write better UI/UX/frontend-specific code. That layer isn't rocket science.

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