Comment by mmooss

Comment by mmooss 2 days ago

117 replies

I hope for the best but plan for the worst:

I don't think people want to change email addresses very often. How do I know Mozilla will still be doing this in 5-10 years? (Edit: Others have pointed out that, if we can bring our own domains, technical users can retain their address. However, for non-technical users that's not an option.)

Also, I'm not sure about charging a fee at the start (except for TB contributors) and providing a free tier later - reverse of the usual way of launching a product. Maybe this is a soft launch to shake out the bugs and build a little momentum, and you can pay if you want to take part?

Mozilla could do something awesome here. I hate to say it, but here is a chance to start fresh and make big, legacy-breaking changes to Thunderbird. The new audience - which should become the vast majority if they are successful - won't care if it's not like the old Thunderbird (possibly unlike many on HN). Here is a chance to do something special and the mail client is all most users see or understand.

mdasen 2 days ago

> I'm not sure about charging a fee at the start and providing a free tier later

I think this is a smart move. Email isn't a platform where you need to conquer the world to be successful. Hey has been doing great business with an only-paid model. Might as well serve the paying customers first and build up revenue.

Also, whenever you're launching something new, you generally need to limit onboarding. Google did it with Gmail, Bluesky did it with their service. You can't have a flood of 10 million new users all at once before you've had a chance to scale things. Seems reasonable to let paying users in first given that email doesn't have network lock-in effects.

I think there is reasonable skepticism around how committed Mozilla is to this. However, I think that starting with the paid tiers is a smart move given that they'd have to limit signups initially anyway.

  • matt-p 2 days ago

    I think it shows real maturity to take this approach and makes me feel more comfortable that they'll be sustainable.

  • snotrockets a day ago

    > Hey has been doing great business with an only-paid model.

    [citation needed]

    • eek2121 a day ago

      From the perspective of an end user, I subscribe to hey, have done so since public launch, and I am quite happy with it.

    • dismalaf 6 hours ago

      They're a private company so numbers aren't available but DHH has said in podcasts it's several million ARR. Not huge but fine for a company of their size with multiple products.

  • DrillShopper a day ago

    Plus when I'm paying I know that I'm the customer, not the product.

palata 2 days ago

> I don't think people want to change email addresses very often.

You probably know this already, but people should have their own domain. Then they can change provider without changing the address.

  • kdasme 2 days ago

    > You probably know this already, but people should have their own domain.

    Until they forget or unable to renew. And then their PII is in the hands of the person who gets the domain.

    • tombert 2 days ago

      That happened to me, but fortunately it didn't end up being a huge deal.

      I had forgotten to renew my domain from Gandi, it expired, and I stopped getting emails. I also could not find my password for Gandi, and I couldn't get the password reset to work, so I panicked, but fortunately Gandi will let you renew someone else's domain. Not a transfer, just if account A wants to pay to renew account B's domain without any change of ownership, they allowed that, so I made a quick throwaway account, and renewed everything for eight years.

    • SR2Z 2 days ago

      I mean, sure, but I and probably 99% of other folks have a credit card set up to autorenew. This is a security problem, but not a very serious one.

      • stubish 2 days ago

        Credit cards have expiry dates, or at least they do over here. I expect my partners domain to expire 10 years after my death, as I can only pay 10 years in advance. To many people, there are more important things to worry about (and often second thoughts after the fact).

    • PaulDavisThe1st 2 days ago

      Taking over a domain is not particularly connected to access to PII.

      You own/control the name, not the set of files on a hosting service somewhere.

      • squiggleblaz 2 days ago

        If you buy someone's domain name, then they'll probably have emails going to it. So you set up a catchall address and discover what accounts are related to it, then you can use the reset password functionality to get access to the accounts. In some cases, they'll have a backup gmail account - and perhaps you can guess what it is (e.g. emails come through to Paul Davis so you guess, oh, maybe they have the paul.davis google account, and reset password on that).

      • mkl 2 days ago

        But if someone else gets the name, they get your email going forward, and therefore access to a lot of your accounts.

  • al_borland 2 days ago

    If you're going to buy a domain for this, don't get fancy with the TLD. I made the mistake of choosing a .io domain for this purpose and with the future of the TLD uncertain, I have been moving away from it, so I'm not left in a bad spot if things go sideways.

    • mary-ext a day ago

      Never go for ccTLDs for anything critical, since you're practically at the whims of the government controlling it (see: .af ccTLD that the Taliban took over)

      • folmar a day ago

        One exception is the country you actually live in, then a local TLD wins you at least a more reasonable way to go to court.

      • Nuent 17 hours ago

        Never ever? Should I start moving away from my .li domain?

    • ohgr 2 days ago

      Yeah even sensible looking decisions can backfire. Am in the UK. Had to scrap my .eu domain due to brexit.

    • tombert 2 days ago

      wait what? Is .io going away?

      I have a .app domain for my email, and have had it since like 2018. Now I'm wondering if that was a mistake.

      • williamscales 2 days ago

        The British Indian Ocean Territories (.io) might go to control of Mauritius. They will be able to decide what to do with the TLD. It could in principle be restricted to residents, or go away entirely.

  • phantomathkg 2 days ago

    People should, but is the existing process simple enough even any laymen can do is the question.

    • palata a day ago

      To be fair, most people I know that are competent to do it just don't. So there is probably another reason, like "people can't be arsed to do it".

  • Mistletoe 2 days ago

    The average person is not intelligent enough to have their own domain.

    • Hojojo a day ago

      Getting a domain is no more difficult than selecting some "easy web hosting and email" bundle on a site and paying for it with bank transfer, credit card or whatever. There's an entire industry around this. I've met plenty of people who are largely clueless about PCs, doctors, lawyers, artists, etc who have their own domain. It's actually extremely common, because conducting business from a Gmail account is a bit unprofessional and sketchy, particularly here in Germany.

    • lelanthran a day ago

      > The average person is not intelligent enough to have their own domain.

      You think that that skill (maintaining own domain for email) is an indicator of intelligence?

      • palata 10 hours ago

        My interpretation was that they didn't mean to talk about "intelligence", just meant that the average person is not "competent enough" to have their own domain. Which in all fairness is not wrong.

        My question is always: of those who are competent, why is the vast majority not having their own domain?

      • johnisgood a day ago

        It is an indicator of knowledge, not necessarily intelligence.

    • palata 2 days ago

      I said "own your domain", not "self-host your email server".

      • kube-system 2 days ago

        "own your domain" is technobabble to 99.999+% of email users. Most people understand emails addresses are <something> "@gmail.com" or "@yahoo.com" or "@<somebigcompany>.com". They don't understand the parts of an email address, nor how or why they are constructed that way.

        I have been using a personal domain for my email address for decades and when I have to give it out verbally to someone, it is about a 50% chance that the conversation is:

        "My email is <name@myname.tld>"

        "uuhhh... at gmail.com?"

        "No it's just <@myname.tld>"

        "Yeah, but is it gmail or yahoo?"

    • 999900000999 2 days ago

      Or they have better things to do vs fighting Route53 MX records errors.

      • yakireev 2 days ago

        Records, shmekords.

        The practical experience of having your own domain for your email is that you delegate your domain to Google / Fastmail / Proton / whatever, and it takes care of everything else. Some webmail providers will also let you buy a domain on their own website as a part of registration flow.

        It really is not hard. Harder than not having a domain of your own, but not as hard as you make it sound.

ferfumarma 2 days ago

I'm deeply skeptical as well.

If firefox doesn't have enough compelling ideas and features in its primary domain of the browser, then how are they going to develop a new mail competency in such a complete way that they can take on gmail?

Whether they succeed or fail, this will sap resources from the browser team. And it seems overwhelmingly likely to fail.

  • brnaftr361 2 days ago

    I don't think it's so much that they don't have ideas it's that they're competing with Alphabet's Chrome, who are coincidentally owners of Android, Gmail, YouTube and Google which are internet keystones. I think it's solely by coincidence that I use Firefox rather than Chrome and if I'd started using the Internet a few years later it would have been Chrome.

    Also isn't a huge proportion of internet activity mobile users, and outside the US the majority of phones are Android, and most people leave things default, thus Firefox is condemned have a minor share essentially since Chrome is packaged natively with Android?

    Anyways I hope they can dislodge some of the Google train. I abhor using Gmail. Better yet if they can compete with Outlook to some extent. Mozilla actually produces software I trust enough, which has enough utility that I'll install it.

    • aleph_minus_one a day ago

      At least in Germany, Firefox users are very vocal, and will tell other people all the time that they should switch to Firefox on their PC and laptop if they see them using in particular Chrome, but also Edge.

      Indeed, Firefox' market share in Germany is larger than in many other countries.

  • tga_d a day ago

    Firefox is developed by the Mozilla Corporation, Thunderbird is developed by MZLA. They're both subsidiaries of the same non-profit, but they don't share funds or employees, so it's not clear to me how this could "sap resources".

  • mikae1 2 days ago

    > how are they going to develop a new mail competency in such a complete way that they can take on gmail?

    They're likely not taking on Gmail, they're taking on Mailbox.org, Proton and Tuta.

  • mmooss a day ago

    GP here: I'm not deeply skeptical; I'm just wondering about these issues.

fracus 2 days ago

Do people still use Thunderbird client? I would guess 99% of people use their browser.

  • rfarley04 2 days ago

    I use it and feel like it's...fine. A tad slow, and doesn't have some basic features I'd like. But I haven't found any other non-browser clients that I like better than Thunderbird.

  • lelanthran a day ago

    > Do people still use Thunderbird client? I would guess 99% of people use their browser.

    Count me as one. It's nice to have a single local application that is set up for around 5 different accounts on two different providers.

    I also like the immediacy of search on the local data. When I search for something I don't want to see a spinning busy-beachball indicator.

  • makeitdouble 2 days ago

    I think it's definitely a minority.

    I use it to follow three Gmail accounts in parallel, since the web version is a PITA to deal with that scenario. Getting access to my local archive is a bonus point.

  • mcflubbins 2 days ago

    I use it for my email. It does exactly what I need it to, works across several platforms. Is Open Source.

  • abhinavk a day ago

    Virtually nobody uses mail via web browser on phones, the primary computing device of the world right now.

    • fracus a day ago

      If people are using their phones then they are using their email service's app to check their mail. Not Thunderbird.

    • aleph_minus_one a day ago

      > the primary computing device of the world right now.

      Whether this is true or not depends a lot on which the bubble is that you live in.

  • jamesfinlayson 2 days ago

    I used it at a previous job that didn't have a web option for email, but for me the killer feature was that it was the only mainstream newsgroup client (the job delivered error notifications via newsgroups).

    • xp84 2 days ago

      > the job delivered error notifications via newsgroups

      Well, now I've heard everything. This is either peak greybeard creativity, or that was a thing in like 1992 and a system has been left alone for 30+ years to just do its 90s thing. Either way I kind of love it.

      • jamesfinlayson 2 days ago

        Haha probably peak greybeard - the founder and his two friends had been doing Internet stuff since the mid 1990s but the code was much newer. I assume the system worked so they kept doing it. Everything was on-prem too so I guess was an easy option to make logs accessible to everyone without paying for a service.

  • classichasclass 2 days ago

    Yes, on desktop (macOS and Linux). It's not a speed demon but I trust it (on Linux I build from source).

    On Android I use Fastmail's mobile client, but I'm thinking of trying the new mobile Thunderbird there too.

  • alpaca128 a day ago

    Thunderbird lets the user change the UI and hide almost every single element of it. I don't like clutter.

    With that feature I could also help an elderly friend after Microsoft abruptly replaced the easy to use Windows Mail with a mess that they didn't even bother to translate into other languages.

  • folmar a day ago

    I do mostly for work (Alpine does not work out that nice if everyone is sending Exchange-blended tag soup), and a lot of my friends do, many of them (non-IT) engineers.

  • roelschroeven a day ago

    At my (small) workplace we all use Thunderbird, and I use it for my personal email as well.

    A good desktop client, once configured, works a lot better than web-based email clients, especially (but not only) when you have different email accounts that you want to use in the same interface.

  • cxr a day ago

    > I would guess 99% of people use their browser [for email]

    Your comments reveal a major blind spot. 99% of people (or whatever) are using dedicated email clients instead of webmail. They do everything on their phone.

  • apparent 2 days ago

    I like not looking at ads when reading my email, so I use it. If it added local AI based drafting assistance, I would check out that feature. I don't care about FF Send, but might use it a couple times a year.

    • fracus 2 days ago

      Don't most people use an ad blocker?

      • roelschroeven a day ago

        No, I think people who use ad blockers are a minority. And it's not getting better with Chrome/Chromium switching to Manifest v3 which has significantly worse support for ad blockers.

      • apparent a day ago

        I do, but Yahoo for example includes ads in the inbox itself, disguised to look like new messages.

  • nektro 2 days ago

    yes i exclusively use thunderbird to check my email

  • Beijinger 2 days ago

    Web based email is a disease.

    • fracus 2 days ago

      What don't you like about it?

      • Beijinger a day ago

        The handling, the speed, the unavailability of functions and the idea about it.

        • fracus a day ago

          Unconvincing at best, but most likely not even true.

  • jrnichols a day ago

    Not only do I use it for my non-primary email accounts, but I use it for NNTP too. :)