Comment by dgfitz

Comment by dgfitz 17 days ago

19 replies

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> Voting for Donald Trump is unarguably an evil action in my book.

I'm not sure why I'm bothering, but I'll bite.

I didn't vote for the guy, don't like the guy, never have.

Trying to understand _why_ people _did_ vote for him is much more important than declaring half the country (really like 30-35% of the country, more people didn't vote than did vote for a specific candidate) evil.

If we need to assign blame, Biden should have dropped out long before he did so the democrats could have found their next Obama, or something.

Or maybe, just maybe, people were desperate for a change and they were manipulated into a false sense of illogical hope.

The question is, why did they need hope? What was so wrong, in their mind, that we all ended up here?

Or, just declare them evil and hold a useless sense of moral superiority. This solves nothing, but I suppose it makes you feel better.

ListeningPie 16 days ago

I’m not I the states and only see America through the media and social media like this.

You ask why did they need hope, do you have an answer why did they need hope? What’s so bad in America that people could be manipulated as you put it.

It feels a like a repeat of Brexit, where people vote against there own material gains to punish others because that’s the quickest high they can get https://youtu.be/GPgatTnVvVY

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  • YZF 16 days ago

    Brexit is a good example. I think many people just can't extrapolate/predict the results of their actions and understand the policy (assuming politicians are even honest about it in the first place). For most objective smart people Brexit seemed terrible (hey lemme reinforce my ego a little) but expecting your average person to be able to understand that is tough. Also there is a parallel universe somewhere where Brexit maybe has a positive outcome. These things aren't fully deterministic. Similarly people always seem to buy the immigration crime and jobs schtick. And it's also not false that if you open your borders to a stream of people it is likely to change what your country looks like. There's a reason most countries don't have completely open borders and give everyone citizenship the day they set their foot past the border.

    What's so bad in America? You'll be surprised how many people have hard lives in America. A lot. And I think when it's bad there, it's really bad.

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    • kerkeslager 16 days ago

      Okay, but I've known a lot of people in America who've had fucking terrible lives--with the same kinds of problems that Trump voters have--and didn't vote for Trump.

      I mean what's your point here? Okay, so this guy I know had a terrible life and now he's a Trumper--you want me to say it's just okay that he wants to kill my trans friends in a very literal way (as in he's accumulating guns, touts the "kill your local pedophile" slogan, and openly states that trans people are pedophiles)? Sure, I can empathize with the guy having lost everything when he was younger, but empathy doesn't mean we have to ignore the danger he poses.

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      • YZF 15 days ago

        It's never ok to threaten or use violence against people. But there is a range of opinions on trans rights from should man who declare themselves to be female allowed to participate in woman's sports (why do we have woman's sports in the first place?) or use woman's change rooms, to whether the state should fund sex change operations, to questions around when minors can make decisions about their body vs. parents opinions vs. protection of children rights.

        What you're describing is never right and should be dealt with by law enforcement. That's likely far from where many of Republican voters are on this topic.

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SpicyLemonZest 16 days ago

Most Trump supporters are pretty explicit that making people like me feel bad is their primary goal. There's a lot who just want Mass Deportations Now, and a handful of hard single-issue voters on something or another, but the cruelty is the most common thread. The Republican party is right now selling official merchandise (https://shop.gop.com/products/liberal-tears-mug) celebrating the fact that they've successfully upset me.

Why should I believe that they're disguising some secret, more sympathetic motivation? I spent a long time hoping that was the case, because I don't want to believe that so many people favor inflicting harm for its own sake, but there's a point where trying to understand someone in terms I find reasonable becomes falsely putting my own ideas in their mouth.

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hattmall 16 days ago

Or... Trump isn't evil, he loves America and is doing the things he said the President should do since the 1980s. People who blanket think Trump is evil are victims of propaganda. People who voted for him are the ones paying attention.

Trump on Oprah in 1988 https://youtu.be/SEPs17_AkTI?si=odkWs3urOu0xq2nX

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kerkeslager 16 days ago

I'm not voxl, but I do want to point out that he didn't declare anyone evil. He declared an action evil (the action of voting for Donald Trump).

That's an important distinction to me because I believe people can change and start choosing better actions.

But, a whole lot of people haven't changed, still support Trump, and until that changes, those people are dangerous.

And sure, we can empathize with the reasons that got them to do that, but it doesn't follow that we should just pretend what they did was okay, especially is they continue to do harmful things.

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voxl 17 days ago

I said it was an evil action, I didn't call them evil. This is the standard essentialism fallacy of morality. Doing an evil thing does not make your inherently evil. Holding slaves in 1800s is evil, but I don't think the people are inherently evil.

I have a pretty good understanding of why people didn't vote, the block I care about a lot more. The people that did vote for Trump specifically either are ride or die conservative, fell victim to misinformation, or are otherwise uneducated.

Trying to say that Biden and the DNC is "too blame" for someone picking a president that is happy sending citizens to an El Salvador prison is something. I expect a bit more from the electorate myself, and think they should take some accountability for their own mistakes.

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  • dgfitz 17 days ago

    I believe we are, at best, talking past each other. I don’t have the desire or energy to restate my points, given your response.

    I hope you have an excellent rest of your day, take care.

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    • kerkeslager 16 days ago

      This sort of morally superior "trying to get the last word" thing is childish.

      You didn't acknowledge the distinction between calling a person evil, and calling a person's actions evil. There isn't a way to "restate your point" that voxl said something he didn't say which would make it any less of a straw man argument.

      You're not talking past him--he responded directly to what you said--you're just incorrect.

      And you don't even have to admit you were incorrect: you can just have a little red-faced moment alone by yourself in front of your computer and then move on with your life without posting a response. And that would be better than posting this posturing thing where you pretend that some restatement of the singular incorrect point you made would be more correct if only it weren't so exhausting being correct.

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      • dgfitz 16 days ago

        Wow, I really struck a nerve huh?

        I have no idea what point you think you just made.

        I hope you also have an excellent rest of your day, take care.

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  • not_a_bot_4sho 16 days ago

    I'm a Trump hater. I'd vote for a jar of mayonnaise before voting for him. I think he'll be one of the most impactful presidents in US history for terrible reasons.

    > The people that did vote for Trump specifically either are ride or die conservative, fell victim to misinformation, or are otherwise uneducated.

    But this take is very dismissive of Trump voters, trying to find an easy way to avoid the conclusion that the majority of them are sane and rational people who liked what he was saying. Perhaps because it's an uncomfortable truth.

    While I admittedly despise Trump, I'm under no illusions that I'm somehow meaningfully better or superior than those who support him.

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    • GeneralMayhem 16 days ago

      If you're sane and rational and decided that you liked Trump's promises (with "rational" implying that you were actually listening to what he'd do, and not blindly accepting his nonsense about "I'll make everything perfect immediately!"), that leaves only the possibility that you're evil. Or a Russian operative, I suppose.

      His promises on things he can actually do are exclusively for things that are wantonly destructive and incomprehensibly stupid (tariffs, mass layoffs), hateful and incomprehensibly evil (mass deportations without due process), or straight up treason (pardoning J6 insurrectionists, breaking alliances). If you voted for this person, you have to either be so stupid that you believe his obvious lies, or so evil that the things that aren't lies are things you like.

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      • thinkingemote 16 days ago

        Many people who voted for tribe X voted for tribe Y a few years back. Have these people irredeemably changed in your eyes? Are they stupid for doing so? Is it possible for stupid, easily believing people to choose tribe X again? Does it make their stupidity disappear?

        Does choosing a correct tribe increase intelligence and reduce gullibility?

        One increasing view we hear today is of the "uneducated ignorant malleable masses". Should we think of our fellow tribe members this way?

        The question being asked by people in tribes are "what to do with stupid/evil people" and history shows examples of tribes attempts to answer that.

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