Tell HN: Announcing tomhow as a public moderator

1775 points by dang 2 days ago

489 comments | 2 pages

Hi all,

Tom Howard is going public as HN moderator today. He has been doing HN moderation work for years already and knows the site and its practices inside-out, so the only new thing you'll see is mod comments from Tom showing up in the threads the way mine do. I'm not going anywhere, so you'll have two of us to put up with going forward :)

I've known Tom since he was sctb's and my batchmate back in YC W09. Many of you know him as the kind and thoughtful community member tomhoward (https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=tomhoward). He's still kind and thoughtful, but he's going to post as tomhow from now on (https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=tomhow), the same way I switched to dang when I went through this rite of passage years ago.

Below is a bit from Tom about himself. Please join me in welcoming him to this new status which he was crazy enough to say yes to!

---

YC and HN have been a huge part of my life for nearly two decades. I read pg's essay How to Start a Startup in 2005 after my friend (and later, co-founder) Fenn found it on Slashdot, and it opened our eyes as to how to go about building products and companies. I first signed up in late 2007, and since then HN has been the place I come to find interesting news and discussions.

Hacker News gave me a window into the big wide world of technology and startups, that had previously seemed so remote and opaque from where I lived (and still live) in Australia. We were lucky enough to be accepted into the W09 batch of YC, and since then HN has been a place where we could share announcements about the startup, but also where I could share the challenges and struggles I experienced in the startup journey and other aspects of life, particularly to do with health and wellbeing.

From the discussions that have happened about these topics I've ended up making enduring friendships with people all over the world, and have been able to learn many things that have improved my life in profound ways. I love HN's ethos - of being a place people come to engage their curiosity. That's what it's always been for me and what I hope I can help it to be for everyone!

--Tom

EcommerceFlow 2 days ago

Tom, please fix the flag abuse problem. It's gotten to the point where I realize there's no point in commenting on many threads, given my opinions, some of which are very normal nationally.

  • kstrauser 2 days ago

    When I've found myself being publicly tsk'ed by the people around me, I've taken a moment to try go figure out why they disapprove of what I'm saying. It's been a useful life exercise.

    • ceejayoz 2 days ago

      Sometimes you're right, sometimes they are. Sometimes, as the Rick & Morty quote goes, "Your boos mean nothing, I've seen what makes you cheer."

      • kstrauser 2 days ago

        For sure, but then the followup question is "do I want to spend my time and energy around a bunch of people I think are wrong?'

    • dkjaudyeqooe 2 days ago

      Shouldn't that be directed to those with an agenda who and are flagging certain posts?

      Those of us who complain about this highly targeted flagging just want to avoid censorship. I can't see how we need to reflect on this.

      • dpkirchner 2 days ago

        Forums like this are "censored" and that's a really good thing. We don't need a steady stream of (for example) hate for women, minorities, and trans people that you see on truly uncensored forums.

      • bee_rider 2 days ago

        They are flagging posts that they see as pushing an agenda. There isn’t some official separation of agenda-less and agenda-full ideas.

    • aliqot 2 days ago

      I don't think the person getting flagged is always deserving of the dogpile. Your comment implies "you should take this time in timeout to think about your actions" which is just a gentler form of rhetorical struggle sessions, and not always warranted.

      • kstrauser 2 days ago

        For sure. I've had comments flagged that I thought were perfectly reasonable and non-controversial. My first reaction was to be angry and annoyed. But then my kinder angels suggested that perhaps I phrased my idea poorly and people misunderstood that I was largely agreeing with them, or at least very respectfully disagreeing. And then I decided to be more careful with my phrasing next time.

  • bowsamic 2 days ago

    Yeah the flagging is definitely much worse than it used to be. I’ve seen very legitimate LLM critical posts with lots of upvotes and comments flagged

    • dang 2 days ago

      Many people feel that flagging is worse than it used to be, but they don't agree at all on what should or shouldn't be flagged. That makes this feedback less actionable than one might assume.

      HN gets tons and tons of threads that are critical of LLMs, so it's possible that the ones you're seeing get flagged are just below median quality and/or overly repetitive of previous discussions.

      • Tadpole9181 a day ago

        Hey, Dan. I'd be really interested if you could share more about the metrics. As the climate of the world around us has changed, I think a lot of us at least feel flagging has become a cudgel used to silence opposition. Me, for criticism of the current administration. Others, for their views on topics like gender.

        Maybe we just care more and notice it about that subject now. Maybe it's always been this way. But while you often leave long comments that go into how these systems work and the struggles with trying to adjust them or understand of it's even necessary (good stuff), I would be fascinated to see a blog post or something where you really give us a talking to about the state of the community and anything y'all have been trying on your end.

        Just a thought, obviously, you have a whole job moderating already! Have a good day!

  • bee_rider 2 days ago

    A political talking point can be nationally popular but still political, so, outside the scope of the site.

    Anyway, which nation? I think we also aren’t allowed to push Communist party talking points here, despite that party being highly supported in some countries (not that I’d want to, just saying, nationally popular doesn’t mean much).

    • eddyg 2 days ago

      A lot of people don't read the Hacker News Guidelines⁽¹⁾ before submitting and deserve to be flagged. Quoting (emphasis mine):

      Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, or celebrities, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic.

      ⁽¹⁾ https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

      • nubinetwork 2 days ago

        You say that, but there was a big thread on Val Kilmer on the front page this morning...

      • timeon 2 days ago

        > unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon

        Maybe time will tell if it was actually OT.

        • ziddoap 2 days ago

          >Maybe time will tell if it was actually OT.

          When that time comes, if it comes, then you'd be within the guidelines to post it.

          Preemptively posting it just in case it later becomes some new phenomenon is not ideal.

cbeach 2 days ago

Welcome Tom!

One thing I'd really like to see is less tactical flagging of content.

Hopefully with your additional help, people who suppress content they disagree with will be kept in check.

Open discourse is something that used to be sacrasanct in scientific and engineering circles. Over the last decade or so, free speech has been on the decline, and discussion is now very polarised along political lines.

For example, it's nearly impossible to discuss technical progress made by Elon Musk's companies without brigading by leftwing commenters, and I've seen positive news about Musk and his companies get quickly flagged and squirreled away. This is self-serving behaviour by bad actors and should be addressed in order that HN is a politically-neutral forum for discussion, and not a leftwing echo chamber.

  • tomhow a day ago

    I understand, and lament, that the world is so polarised these days. There's a limit to what we in this little corner of the web can do to correct such powerful global macro trends, but we'll continue to try our best.

    If you see things that are unfairly flagged, you can email us and we'll look at them. As long as comments/submissions are within the guidelines, we'll restore them.

    We want HN to be a place where people can discuss contentious topics. This is a major reason why I've moved into an expanded role here. I think HN has been, and can continue to be, one of the better places on the internet for discussing contentious topics.

    The thing to remember is the guiding principle of HN is curiosity. This place is not meant to be for ideological battle, or for trying to win arguments. It's for conversations where we can learn from each other about things we're curious about.

    I've always liked to learn about the opposing side of whatever position I hold. That's why I've found HN to be so valuable, and I want it to be a place people to come to for that reason for many years into the future.

    • dredmorbius a day ago

      How effective are vouches in this regard?

      I'll do that reasonably frequently on both posts and comments, though I'm not sure how effective that is.

      One sec, let's look at the endpoint ... First page (30 entries) for each shows, at this writing:

      - 13 dead of 30 vouched, submissions.

      - 26 dead of 30 vouched, comments.

      The endpoints for the uninitiated:

        Posts:  https://news.ycombinator.com/vouched?id=YOUR_USERNAME_HERE
        Comments:  https://news.ycombinator.com/vouched?id=YOUR_USERNAME_HERE&kind=comment
      
      I'll also admit that at times that's a protest vote against mod interactions as well.

      (The URLs are only visible to the owner of the UID, and I presume, moderators as well.)

      • tomhow 10 hours ago

        Vouches can help restore an item, but are just a counter weight to flags and flamewar penalties.

  • mindcrime 2 days ago

    Flags are issued by regular users like us though. What do you expect a moderator to do, except maybe manually intervene to "un dead" something if it seems like a case of overly biased flagging? That's assuming mods have the ability to do that (I've always assumed that they do).

    • cbeach 2 days ago

      Flagging content should be a privilege that comes at a certain level of trust, and the privilege should be revoked by moderators for people that use flags to further an agenda.

      Trust in forum users can be measured by various metrics - The Discourse forum software is a good example of how to do this: https://blog.discourse.org/2018/06/understanding-discourse-t...

      • philipkglass 2 days ago

        People do get their flagging powers revoked for misuse. There was a time when I went on an overly aggressive flagging spree and my flags no longer had any effect. Months later I sent an email to hn@ycombinator.com to pledge more judicious use of flagging and to request the restoration of that power. I got it back then.

      • Etheryte 2 days ago

        How do you know that people use flags to further an agenda? I for one both downvote and flag pretty often, but it's largely because I don't like the tone of the discourse, not because of some overarching ploy.

      • ryandrake 2 days ago

        Since it's such a powerful action, it would be nice if flaggers had to at least justify the flag. Is it breaking a site rule? Is it spam? Is it not the original source? Does it actually violate the rules, or are you just using "Flag" as a mega-downvote for articles you don't personally like?

  • ryandrake 2 days ago

    > I've seen positive news about Musk and his companies get quickly flagged and squirreled away.

    Huh, I always thought it was the other way around. Anything negative about Musk also gets quickly flagged and buried. I guess we can agree that Musk is currently a lightning rod, and brigades on both sides are acting to hide (positive and negative) coverage of his actions.

  • dmix 2 days ago

    Some valid threads will get flagged because the comment section will be extremely predictable flame wars and have nothing to do with the article. That's the nature of social media. People can't help themselves. There's plenty of other social media sites for that sort of sports team drumbeating, so not much is lost by flagging some news article off the frontpage.

  • kubb 2 days ago

    I hope people don't get punished for flagging Musk appreciation content. There's a lot that can be wrong with such submissions (cultism, uncritical praise, excessive volume, lack of substance, etc.).

    • cbeach a day ago

      > cultism, uncritical praise, excessive volume, lack of substance

      All of which are subjective judgements on the content, which will naturally be reflective of a voter's political biases

      • kubb 18 hours ago

        You can’t eliminate subjective judgement, but cultism isn’t electoral politics, it’s about loving and adoring the guru, feeling great about how smart the guru is etc.

  • Vaslo a day ago

    I will assist in reporting brigading leftist commenters. There are many of us that want to see politics out of commentary when unnecessary.

jgruber 2 days ago

I’ll bet this will fix HN’s transparency issues.

  • [removed] a day ago
    [deleted]
BergAndCo a day ago

[flagged]

  • dang a day ago

    You should supply links to whatever accounts you had that were banned, so readers can make up their own minds about what happened and how fair or unfair we were.

    When someone makes claims about how they were unfairly treated, but won't let people look at the actual situation, that's sort of a tell. If the mods had actually treated them so badly, you can be sure that it would be pointed to with neon hypertext.

    • BergAndCo 16 hours ago

      Here are a few shadowbanned users I saw in a /single/ thread (who don't know they're shadowbanned as they prolifically comment away), whose comments are pretty normie-tier:

      https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=oldpersonintx https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=tomohawk https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=techright75

      (There seems to be extreme bias or unfair flagging by users simply because "old Texan" and "techright" are "scary Conservative-sounding usernames", yet you pursue the innocents being reported rather than the botfarms mass-flagging?)

      It's all very "Everyone Stalin's sending to the gulags is a criminal, though, so keep your nose down and mind your own business." God sees everything, you know.

    • BergAndCo 17 hours ago

      Right, so mods can claim it's my alt and ban me for ban evasion, while the buttkissers comb her history for anything too "techbro"-sounding to prove that she "had it coming". Not my first rodeo, Danny boy.

  • jgord a day ago

    upvoted.. not because I agree, but because dissent has to be tolerated in a civil society.

    I would like to see more discussion on HN around topics that seem unpopular here, and are perhaps politically divisive .. such as : economic inequality, climate change, demographic crunch

    Somewhere between the prevailing economic malaise, cynicism and despair ... and tech-bro fan-boi greedy optimism : there might be a middle way where we can use the new technologies of AI to actually improve our lives and create wide wealth generation, and more prosperity for the middle class.

    • MatthiasPortzel a day ago

      I am firm believer in the right to free speech and the importance of expressing ideas that are contrary to the general cultural attitude.

      That’s why I turn on the Show Dead setting on HN, and I love that HN has that feature.

      Save your upvotes for people positively contributing.

    • BergAndCo 17 hours ago

      Thanks for replying; I had positive karma, now I have negative karma and am lucky I'm not shadowbanned yet. Whether you agree with the comments that got this user shadowbanned, do you agree with shadowbanning this user for these comments? Because it was only for these comments and nothing else.

Teever 2 days ago

I think it's great to see more moderation from non-Americans.

My biggest critique of this site is that the user base and moderation seems very biased with American perspectives to the detriment of the non-American user base and the quality of content as a whole.

  • mkl 2 days ago

    dang is Canadian.

    • Teever a day ago

      I say this as a Canadian -- So he's basically Canadian-lite culturally.

      I want to see more moderation from people around the world, with less geographic and cultural proximity to the Bay area.