Comment by thunkingdeep
Comment by thunkingdeep 2 days ago
This does NOT mean Python will get Tail Call Optimization, as Guido cannot be shown The Light, and has decided.
Comment by thunkingdeep 2 days ago
This does NOT mean Python will get Tail Call Optimization, as Guido cannot be shown The Light, and has decided.
By that standard, any optimization that changes scaling in any dimension changes semantics, which, well, I’m not saying its wrong, but I would say it is exactly what people looking for optimization want.
I disagree.
An optimization that speeds a program by x2 has the same effect as running on a faster CPU. An optimization that packs things tighter into memory has the same effect as using more memory.
Program semantics are usually referred to as “all output given all input, for any input configuration” but ignoring memory use or CPU time, provided they are both finite (but not limited).
TCE easily converts a program that will halt, regardless of available memory, to one that will never halt, regardless of available memory. That’s a big change in both theoretical and practical semantics.
I probably won’t argue that a change that reduces an O(n^5) space/time requirement to an O(1) requirement is a change in semantics, even though it practically is a huge change. But TCE changes a most basic property of a finite memory Turing machine (halts or not).
We don’t have infinite memory Turing machines.
edited: Turing machine -> finite memory Turing machine.
> By that standard, any optimization that changes scaling in any dimension changes semantics
That doesn't follow. This isn't like going from driving a car to flying an airplane. It's like going from driving a car to just teleporting instantly. (Except it's about space rather than time.)
It's a difference in degree (optimization), yes, but by a factor of infinity (O(n) overhead to 0 overhead). At that point it's not unreasonable to consider it a difference in kind (semantics).
Modern C compilers are able to transform something like this:
for (int i = 0; i < n; i++) a += i;
To:
a += n * (n+1) / 2;
Is this an optimisation or a change in program semantics? I've never heard anyone call it anything slse than an optimisation.
The important thing is whether theres a garuntee of it happening in particular circumstance or not. Like with python referencing counting theoretically finalizers should be called after you lose all references to a file (assuming no cycles) but you cant rely on it.
Python dicts were in insert sort order for 3.6 but this only became a garuntee as opposed to an implementation choice that could be changed at anyvtime with python3.7
> converts programs that will run out of stack eventually regardless of the amount of available memory (and raise exceptions an the process, for example, which a program might rely on
That's probably one of the more frustrating things about Python. Each release it gets all sorts of questionable new syntax (including the very strange pattern matching "feature" that kind of sucks compared to something like Erlang or Scala), but we never get real useful quality of life improvements for basic functional programming like TCO or multi line lambdas
Python has always been unashamedly imperative, with some functional features entering by slipping through the cracks. The pattern matching thing seemed ok to me when I tried it, but I haven't used it except briefly, since I'm still mostly on Python 3.9. Interestingly, Python has been losing users to Rust. I don't entirely understand that, other than everyone saying how Rust's tooling is so much better.
> Python has been losing users to Rust. I don't entirely understand that, other than everyone saying how Rust's tooling is so much better.
Not to rust, but to Go and C++ for myself. The biggest motivating factor is deployment ease. It is so difficult to offer a nice client install process when large virtual environments are involved. Static executables solve so many painpoints for me in this arena. Rust would probably shine here as well.
If its for some internal bespoke process, I do enjoy using Python. For tooling shipped to client environments, I now tend to steer clear of it.
> For tooling shipped to client environments, I now tend to steer clear of it.
A guy on r/WritingWithAI is building a new writing assistant tool using python and pyQt. He is not a SE by trade. Even so, the installation instructions are:
- Install Python from the Windows app store
- Windows + R -> cmd -> pip install ...
- Then run python main.py
This is fine for technical people. Not regular folks.
For most people, these incantations to be typed as-is in a black window mean nothing and it is a terrible way of delivering a piece of software to the end-user.
As someone that always kept a foot on C++ land, dispite mostly working on managed languages, I would that by C++17 (moreso now in C++23), dispite all its quirks and warts, C++ has become good enough that I can write Python like code with it.
Maybe it is only a thing to those of us already damaged with C++, and with enough years experience using it, but there are still plenty of such folks around to matter, specially to GPU vendors, and compiler writers.
I'm largely still a Python user, but when I've used it, rust overall gross way more thoughtfully and consistently designed— both in the core language features and in the stdlib.
Python's thirty years of evolution really shows at this point.
> we never get real useful quality of life improvements for basic functional programming like TCO or multi line lambdas
A lambda can be as big of an expression as you want, including spanning multiple lines; it can't (because it is an expression) include statements, which is only different than lambdas in most functional languages in that Python actually has statements.
Guido is no longer BDFL though, it's the steering committee that decides.
Ah, you’re correct. My comment was mainly meant as a tongue in cheek remark to point out that this definition of tailcall is wholly separate from Python function objects and merely an implementation detail.
the steering committee seems way less conservative than Guido, right?
Looking at python from the outside a lot of changes since GvR stepped down seem like stuff he'd not have been fond of.
I think this is a change longer in the making than that. Back when I started working with Python in the mid--late 2000s, the Zen was holy and it seemed very unlikely to ever see multiple ways to do "one thing".
The Python community has since matured and realised that what they previously thought of as "one thing" were actually multiple different things with small nuances and it makes sense to support several of them for different use cases.
Any examples? The biggest change since Guido stepped down has been the addition of pattern matching, which he was strongly in favour of.
Moreover, Guido is in favour of ongoing addition of major new features (like pattern matching), worrying that without them Python would become a “legacy language”:
https://discuss.python.org/t/pep-8012-frequently-asked-quest...
I was thinking of the walrus operator, various f-string changes, relenting on the "GIL removal must not cost performance" stance (although"covered" by other improvements), things like that.
I don't follow python closely so it may 100% be stuff that GvR endorsed too, or I'm mixing up the timelines. It just feels to me that python is changing much faster than it did in the 2.x days.
Pattern matching seems like a cool feature that was added just because it was cool. I think the syntax is really odd too - apparently to “be pythonic”. I really see no use for it other than to “look smart”. The fact that case match (switch case is a much better description) is expanded to practically a huge if else is disturbing. Similarly the walrus operator. Other than an answer to “what is a new feature of python that you like” interview trivia question, really, who has actually used it?
It is not an optimization ; it changes program semantics - converts programs that will run out of stack eventually regardless of the amount of available memory (and raise exceptions an the process, for example, which a program might rely on. Either way, semantics are changed)
It should only be called Tail Call Elimination.