Comment by computerthings

wakawaka28 12 hours ago

His statement is hyperbolic and perhaps strikes some people as insensitive, but what do you think it means to come to terms with something like that? A memorial doesn't seem unreasonable (though I have not seen the memorial), but what is unreasonable is expecting people to hang their heads low forever and sell out their own interests in contrition for that was done by a small number of despots in their country three or more generations ago. Most Germans even at the time had no idea that the Holocaust was happening, and were horrified to find out just like the rest of the world. What if the administration of your country decided to kill millions of people somewhere for whatever reason? It already has on multiple occasions, and is there any memorial for the victims anywhere in the capital for each occasion?

Dredging up the past might be educational or enlightening, but in some cases it inspires people who don't know each other to hate each other or else to become hypersensitive to offenses by other groups. Also, being against immigration is not bad. Some cultures just don't work well together and can't be mixed, like oil and water. When a situation like that is identified, then it should be talked about and reversed if necessary to PREVENT violence.

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computerthings 10 hours ago

> what is unreasonable is expecting people to hang their heads low forever and sell out their own interests in contrition
What is that even in reference to? The AfD is fully neoliberal, they're the last to talk about selling out.
> for that was done by a small number of despots in their country three or more generations ago. Most Germans even at the time had no idea that the Holocaust was happening
Let's just accept that as face value: and then we found out, and decided this must NEVER EVER happen again. Not "not more than in one of three generations". And that requires teaching each new generation everything of what happened there. If you don't have the stamina and intellectual honesty for that, there's the exit.
And "a small number of despots" didn't commit the Holocaust, and the Holocaust wasn't the only crime the Nazis committed, "just" the one that shocked even people who had accepted all sorts of other atrocities -- as long as they thought it might mean they would win.
It's not a negative thing to teach, just like it's not negative to teach Americans about slavery. That is what happened, you cannot change it. And you cannot have dignity while denying the truth, period. Not ever. You can have some armband to identify with, but it doesn't make you more dignified, it just sets the real you aside to gather dust, while you stare at the armband.
> Dredging up the past might be educational or enlightening
If you use electricity, is that also "dredging up inventions from the past"? It's not negative to know what happened, and where this mindless identification with "sides" and slogans can lead to. It's a discovery we made and will keep, considering the price it came with.
> but in some cases it inspires people who don't know each other to hate each other or else to become hypersensitive to offenses by other groups.
Now that's quite the trick: teaching about how propaganda and peer pressure enabled persecution at such giant scale might "inspire people who don't know each other to hate each other"? How so? Who exactly would be hated, by whom, by Germans learning about and staying aware of German history?
> Some cultures just don't work well together and can't be mixed, like oil and water.
Yeah, like people from Hamburg and Bavaria, right? What cultures are you talking about? What is "the" German culture, what cultures are compatible with it, based on what properties, and what cultures aren't, based on what properties? Because I only ever hear the generic adjective as if it means something, from people who want to somehow be "proud to be German", but then barely speak the language and are, time and time again, either unaware or dismissive of the history.

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- wakawaka28 7 hours ago
  
  >Let's just accept that as face value: and then we found out, and decided this must NEVER EVER happen again. Not "not more than in one of three generations". And that requires teaching each new generation everything of what happened there.
  Let's just accept that as face value, these events become less relevant to each passing generation, and you don't rightfully get to decide what your great(x20) grandchildren are concerned with. How many people in Mongolia do you think are mourning the atrocities of Ghengis Khan? Whether you believe it or not, the Holocaust will reach a point of irrelevance, just like basically every bad deed done under the sun.
  >If you don't have the stamina and intellectual honesty for that, there's the exit.
  Honestly, dragging up the past and applying labels to people when they don't deserve it is not going to prevent any atrocity. It's going to create bad blood between groups of people who otherwise would have no issue.
  >It's not a negative thing to teach, just like it's not negative to teach Americans about slavery. That is what happened, you cannot change it. And you cannot have dignity while denying the truth, period. Not ever.
  So, apart from "telling the truth" tactfully in a way that does not create improper appearances, I think disabusing yourself of your own dignity over things that a small percentage of the population of the country who happened to look like you generations ago is a bad thing. Do you believe children are responsible for the evils of their parents? If you don't believe that, then why do believe everyone who looks a certain way in a country is responsible for what other people who look like them did many years before? Demanding undeserved shame and even monetary consideration from people who have done nothing wrong is a good way to make yourself one of the most hated people in the world.
  >If you use electricity, is that also "dredging up inventions from the past"? It's not negative to know what happened, and where this mindless identification with "sides" and slogans can lead to. It's a discovery we made and will keep, considering the price it came with.
  It's not up to you what lessons anyone else in the distant future will learn. As for "sides" it seems to me that some people are quick to label anyone else they disagree with a tiny mustache man, which trivializes the German tragedy and totally qualifies as "mindless identification" and othering of everyone else. As in, "If you're not with us on immigration, you're literally a Nazi, and we don't talk to Nazis." So the lesson is not really learned now is it? Except when Jewish people literally enter the conversation, it makes no sense, and it is often used to shut down legitimate criticism of people who happen to be Jewish.
  >Now that's quite the trick: teaching about how propaganda and peer pressure enabled persecution at such giant scale might "inspire people who don't know each other to hate each other"? How so? Who exactly would be hated, by whom, by Germans learning about and staying aware of German history?
  How so? Are you kidding? It seems to me that on the surface, white German people are hated as a whole by at least a notable minority of every other group of Germans. Jewish Germans will be suspicious of non-Jewish Germans, especially nationalists.
  To give you a non-German example of how dwelling on the past can be unhealthy, I return to the US. In the US it has become fashionable to associate racism with patriotism, as if you can't love this country without being a racist, simply because some people in its distant past used slave labor before (labor from both whites and blacks, and a practice which was common at the time). There are many examples of people who don't know each other getting into awful situations with other people who they don't know, all because of historical baggage that they were taught about people who look a certain way. I take it you have been privileged to avoid any such situations in your life, but they do happen. Why should a white person in 2025 be afraid to look a black compatriot in the eye because of misdeeds of OTHER white people hundreds of years before he was born? Why should a black person view any given white person with suspicion or even disdain, except for having been told that people who look like him (and were in truth VERY different people, living in VERY different times) did something against some other black people in the past?
  >>Some cultures just don't work well together and can't be mixed, like oil and water.
  >What cultures are you talking about? What is "the" German culture, what cultures are compatible with it, based on what properties, and what cultures aren't, based on what properties?
  For the Germans? That would be the cultures of many of the Muslim immigrants who want a Muslim theocracy to enforce Sharia Law and burkas for all women, for example, compared to the culture of the natives. Basically all Western cultures are incompatible with that yet our overlords keep trying to push people together with incompatible cultures that have never lived together and have no desire to live together. I think they want to tear down any unity that can exist in any country, so that people are too distracted with each other to notice how they're getting screwed.
  >What is "the" German culture, what cultures are compatible with it, based on what properties, and what cultures aren't, based on what properties? Because I only ever hear the generic adjective as if it means something, from people who want to somehow be "proud to be German", but then barely speak the language and are, time and time again, either unaware or dismissive of the history.
  I don't know because I'm not German, but every group of people has its own customs. I imagine that Germans identify with many of the Western values of liberalism and democracy, have their own cultural habits, food preferences (including consumption of pork and alcohol), valuing hard work and precision in engineering, etc. There is a lot to the country and its people besides unfortunate events in the early 20th century. Up until recent decades it was also almost entirely white ethnic Germans living there. Why aren't they allowed to be proud of their culture, and to simply (and rarely) denounce awful things that they had nothing to do with, and for whose benefit should they hang their heads in constant shame?
  America is a far more diverse place than Germany with a much shorter history and I think it would be foolish to insinuate that Americans don't have a culture or anything to be proud of, because of any of the unfortunate things that some Americans did in the past.
  Your question becomes far more ludicrous if you substitute anything else for "German." What does it mean to be proud to be anything? Black, white, Chinese, Indian, American, British, Nigerian, Catholic, Protestant, Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, tall, handsome, etc.... It is a little bit silly to be proud of something that is purely circumstantial, especially when it comes to culture, but it makes about as much sense as being proud of your own family. That is, you are part of your family and your family is a part of you (to the extent that you want either of these things to be the case).
  
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  computerthings 3 hours ago
  
  > these events become less relevant to each passing generation, and you don't rightfully get to decide what your great(x20) grandchildren are concerned with.
  In context of you claiming the AfD is "one of the oldest parties in Germany", and Alice Weidel (AfD party leader) claiming Hitler was a communist just now, I'd say people just making shit up isn't something 20 generations into the future. And for people in the future to have the choice whether they want to be concerned about something in the past, they first have to know about it. So revisionism is right out, fundamentally. If you don't get why Germans are finicky about that, actually do read up on our history. But even generally, states have historical continuity and it matters, you can't say "I want to keep living in the borders that are there for X reason, but lie about whatever I want".
  > Do you believe children are responsible for the evils of their parents? If you don't believe that, then why do believe everyone who looks a certain way in a country is responsible for what other people who look like them did many years before?
  No, I believe neither, which is why I said neither.
  > Demanding undeserved shame and even monetary consideration from people who have done nothing wrong is a good way to make yourself one of the most hated people in the world.
  The question is "are the AfD neo-Nazis", and you come out with "they're one of the oldest parties in Germany" and now this stuff? I'll have you know that the AfD is a fan of what Israel is doing in Gaza.
  > It's not up to you what lessons anyone else in the distant future will learn.
  This isn't (just) about "lessons", this is about the factual reality to draw lessons from, see "revisionism" above.
  > white German people are hated as a whole by at least a notable minority of every other group of Germans. Jewish Germans will be suspicious of non-Jewish Germans, especially nationalists.
  Nah. I'll take your blank assertion as a white German male who was born here and just say "nah". Whatever prejudice of that kind there may be is far outweighed by everybody who enjoys the togetherness of not indulging in that shit. You know, real diversity?
  There are actual problems with integration, but the AfD is not interested in or capable of helping with that. They are total neoliberal clowns, out to sell of the state and the people in it to the highest bidder, they just use foreigners as scapegoats to fatten the coffers of their actual overlords (including constantly cozying up to Putin), so decreasing social security and all that -- while talking about imaginary "woke/far-left overlords" to those who may get duped by it.. which essentially just means "people in the arena of words, which we checked out 6 decades ago to just mumble amongst ourselves, have gone too far, so SMASH THE WORDS, because we are so BACK!".
  Well nope. They offer no solutions, they are exploiting issues to make them worse. Like what you write about Burkas below, you should see the horrible, rancid shit some AfD people say about women. It's way, way worse than Trump's "grab them by the pussy", I'll say that.
  Integration requires having a spine, treating people firmly and fairly. The AfD do not have it in them, they cannot even stand up to scrutiny to a moderately bright German. You don't "command respect" by burning refugee homes at night, either.
  > As in, "If you're not with us on immigration, you're literally a Nazi, and we don't talk to Nazis."
  No, you brought up immigration. Nobody claimed the AfD are Neo-Nazis just because of that. It's just a given that they have this stance, too.
  > For the Germans? That would be the cultures of many of the Muslim immigrants who want a Muslim theocracy to enforce Sharia Law and burkas for all women, for example, compared to the culture of the natives. Basically all Western cultures are incompatible with that yet our overlords keep trying to push people together with incompatible cultures that have never lived together and have no desire to live together.
  Who are "our overlords"? Not just mega corporations etc, right? Because again, the AfD is fully neoliberal, they are on board with creating the conditions that allow people to see other small fish (or ominous "overlords" but never just anything to do with income tax etc.) as scapegoats.
  > I don't know because I'm not German, but every group of people has its own customs. I imagine that Germans identify with many of the Western values of liberalism and democracy
  Yes, which is why the AfD, who had a member dancing on the Holocaust memorial, not just criticizing it, who has people saying how they'll round up journalists and homosexuals and whatnot when they're in power, who has (along with the CDU..) people attending little secret meetings ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAhoQrrfXiY ) about deporting people they don't deem German enough, does not belong. For any immigrant it's at least up to the person -- not up to you and your prejudice -- but the AfD made that decision already.
  > There is a lot to the country and its people besides unfortunate events in the early 20th century.
  Unfortunate events? How many concentration camps have you visited? How many relatives who lived during that time have you spoken to? How many dozens, hundreds of books have you read about it? You have no idea what you are even talking about. Adding "early" as if it makes a difference. Every city has houses where people were dragged out of them as their neighbors looked away, or were scared. The ignorance of people who "don't want to be bothered" has no weight. You want to live on the ground where this happened, preferably learn what happened -- but at the very least don't interfere with the learning of it, or you're a complete persona non grata. That goes for Germans, that goes for immigrants.
  > Your question becomes far more ludicrous if you substitute anything else for "German."
  Maybe, but this is about the AfD, and Germany. Germans have wondered about "what does being German even mean" for a looong time, for centuries. Since you're not a German interested in history and literature, you have no way of knowing that. But even before the Nazis, the answer for many included not so much being "liberal and democratic" but (also) cosmopolitan, that ideal is much older I'd say. That's where the whole achievements and pride stuff comes from, too: not just some Germans being super German to other Germans, or debating what that even is, but being able to to interact with and interested in the world. That's a big part of Germany, a big country smack in the middle of Europe.
  It's a unique history and when Germans laugh at other Germans for pretending there is a "German-ness" everybody just knows about and agrees on, it has a reason.
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleinstaaterei
  Just take the just recent reunification on top of that, too! We can talk about specific values, and specific individuals who want to live here can be asked to adhere to them. And we can talk about how to improve that. But this generic stuff about "cultures" is like Elon Musk talking about Path of Exile. He thinks what he says is reasonable, but if you actually know, you know how far off the mark it is. Even German Neo-Nazis can do nothing but deflect when asked what "German culture" is. They won't even pay lip service to "liberal democracy", they'd phrase their scapegoating of Muslims differently.
  And nationalism is very different from patriotism. We had the Nazis already, there are whole libraries of really smart people having mulled over these issues, and the mechanisms of it. Of course the people who want to repeat it say learning about it is not important. Of course the people who never learned about it in the first place don't. Irrelevant.
  
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